Periodically we take on difficult or controversial issues in these articles and resolve them through scripture. In each case we begin from the perspective that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and as such cannot be self-contradictory. So if we think we see a contradiction, the problem's with our understanding, not God's Word.

How secure are you?

One of the controversies in the Church has been whether our salvation is irrevocable once given (eternal security), or whether we can by word or deed lose or reject it (conditional security). It's an issue that has plagued the Church from the beginning.

What School Did You Attend?

Among those Christians who even consider the issue (tragically, many don't) there are essentially two schools of thought.

The Doctrine of Election holds that you didn't choose God, He chose you. Since you didn't choose to be saved, you can't refuse or reject salvation (irresistible grace, it's called). God chose you and He chose you forever. This view confuses Israel, who didn't have a choice about a relationship with God, with the Church, who did (Rom 11:25-29). It's a child of Replacement Theology.

The Doctrine of Agency holds that anyone can choose to be saved, but since you chose to receive salvation, you can later lose or reject it by word or deed. Some proponents of this view also contend that if you ever do lose or reject it, you never get another chance.

These positions are both right in what they assert; Election - you're saved forever; and Agency - it's your decision (Ephe 1:13-14). They're both wrong in what they deny; Agency - you're not saved forever; Election - it's not your decision

The controversy probably stems from man's difficulty in understanding two basic truths; the unconditional nature of God's love, and the relationship between God and time (2 Ptr 3:8-9).

First His Love

Regardless of your theological position, one thing is clear from reading the Old Testament. In all God's attempts at relating to His creation, none was successful. This was due to the basic flaw caused by man's fall in the Garden; his inherent sinfulness. Man is simply not able to meet God's standards, so sooner or later God had to go away to avoid destroying him altogether. He loves us so much He can't let us be hopelessly lost, and yet He can't violate His laws to save us. It's an impossible situation. This is why, when Peter asked, "Who then can be saved," the Lord answered, "With man this impossible but not with God."(Mark 10:27)

In order to be a Father to His children, He had to find a way to eliminate the sin problem that was neither contingent on our behavior nor contrary to His law. And He had do it once and for all. The brutal fact is that if He had made any of our salvation conditional on our subsequent thoughts or deeds, we would all have been irretrievably lost within 24 hours.

Contained in the Old, Explained in the New

You say, "Why then is the Old Testament full of the stories of man's disobedience followed by God's judgement? Isn't that the pattern He's is showing us?" Good questions. Here's the answer;

The Old Testament was before the cross and
the pattern was to teach us that nothing but the cross could satisfy God's requirements (Acts 4:12).
In 4000 years of the most elaborate system of religious works ever devised (the Lord Himself officiating over much of it) with buildings costing more than anyone could afford today, not a single person was saved until our Creator's own blood was shed on the cross. Obviously, some were born and died before that event, and others would be born and die afterward, so He had to make His death suffice for all time (Hebr 7:27). Because of this, all anyone ever needed to do was ask in faith to receive. Anyone can ask, and all who ask receive. It is His work that saves and keeps us, not ours.

It's About Time

On the matter of time, the understanding from science has come only in our generation, long after both of these theological views were formed. Simply put, time is a physical property, to which only physical beings are subject. God is a spirit, not a physical being. He doesn't just have lots of time, He's not governed by time at all. He can see the end from the beginning, and everything in between. He knew every sin of your life before He created the Earth. He also knew you were going to ask Him for forgiveness for all those sins. When He went to the cross He took all your sins with Him, and paid for them there, so that when you asked He could immediately forgive you. (Even the faith to ask was a gift from Him.)

Holy and Blameless, Without Spot or Blemish

If you've asked Him to be your Savior there is no sin you can commit in your lifetime that will cause Him to revoke your salvation, because there is no sin that He doesn't already know about. And that means there is no sin He hasn't already paid for. If He gave you the faith to ask, He will use that same faith to sustain you. As He died, He said, "It is finished." He was talking about the work of saving you.

Good show old man. I can't accept what you are saying because I honestly feel that it isn't so. Like Jonzy and the Trinity, this is my stumbling block if you will.

The idea of a fire insurance policy where you get in under the wire so to speak is tempting to grab on to, and even the idea of being the least in the kingdom is another tempting scenario. However I need to investigate more on my own.

In my Bible, Jewish Bible, Aramaic Bible and the older translations (Darby, Holman, & Wycliffe) there are some interesting passages that I need to study much more intently. I need to sit before the LORD and have Him fill me in. Sorry it is too pat. If I end up finding out I am wrong then I will admit it but at this time I'm skeptical.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

Any "questions" one might have can be solved with prayer, sometimes fasting, and reading and study of the Word. One's heart must be right with the Lord to avail His voice.

I'm in the study of Revelation on The Stream Academy. It's absolutely fascinating to me! It is of course not easy, but that's what makes it so interesting. Revelation has always been opened in bits and pieces to me, but the study opens it like a blossoming rose.

JF, get on your knees, pray, and then open up the Word. I guarantee it will open to you. Sometimes on here I wonder what some folks are reading, or if they spend much time in prayer. Or know how to fast. It's facinating how the disciples were "so in tune" and we on here can't often get to first base!

Come on, brothers and sisters! Open wide your hearts and the Word!

bill

Bill i second that closing thought, Amen brother!

Serge

jf (Is it Ariel? if so - great name!), for me, the OSAS gives me much peace. It is the Peace of Jesus, that surpasses all understanding. Paul knew that He was saved. But he seemed almost paranoid about losing - not his salvation - but his crowns from sanctification.

Chuck Missler states that truly saved persons cannot be lost because it would make God "butterfingers" - trite but true.

I have found that by crying out to My LORD for wisdom, I have been led to answers I did not necessarily expect. You seem to be truly searching, and I applaud that. May the LORD give you the answers you seek.

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Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

Last Edited on Nov 8, 2009 10:03 AM

In my tabulation (forgive me Lord) I believe most, if not a majority, were like the seed cast upon the rock. The first wind blew it into never-never land. It was like the relative who came next door I told ya all about. When he told me Christianity wasn't any fun, I nearly choaked. I must live a different saved life. If my life got anymore "fun" I couldn't stand it!

Guys like me simply (ahem again) got lost on the wide road, but the Lord leads us back to the narrow path. The others I question, too, whether they were really saved. I will say this, however. A new convert NEEDS, requires, discipling, discipling, discipling. This is probably the wrong forum for a new believer, but I can't emphasize enough the discipling point. I failed in that with the first person I led to Christ. But he did not backslide.

Some, and I do say some Christians parallel the world's fun with a Christ follower's fun. They are not even on the same pages, or even the same note pad, my friends. I never could understand how somebody considered a couple nights of drinking and not knowing when or how they got home, blowing the family's livilhood they announce to the world, "they worked for it," fun.

Knock-knock on my head. How is this fun? A friend of mine, now a Christian, is married to a woman who, when you see her walking away would knock your eyes out, so to speak. But when she turns she is homelier than any woman I've ever met. However, you would not want a more lovely person beside you. Not physically but spiritually and inner lovliness. She doesn't have a pretty face, but she's a knockout on the inside. That, my friends, is what counts.

My friend said one day: "I woke up one morning after a night of intoxication. She was next to me. I looked puzzling at the ring on my finger. She gave that beautiful white-tooth smile of hers and said, 'We're married.' "At first I wanted to shoot myself, but then I began to fall in love with her. Where could I find another woman who was as nice inside as she was shapely and with that beautiful smile?"

They came to Christ together five years after their marriage. The last I talked to them they have wonderful children and 30 years of marriage under their belt. I guess some good can come from the world's idea of partying, but I wouldn't bet my soul on it.

Satan makes sex, drinking, drugs, smoking, and everything else involved in the party crowd look good. I'm no hypocrite. I partied (didn't drink much, and was never drunk) with the "in crowd." However, I was always empty inside.

If one comes to Christ, really turns their life over to Him, He never forsakes that person. He didn't me. And He won't anyone else, either. If someone really gets the Holy Ghost inside of them and truly sees what this Christ is like, nothing the world has to offer can compare.

Sorry I went on. Preacher in me.

bill

Last Edited on Nov 8, 2009 2:43 AM

Last Edited on Nov 8, 2009 2:11 PM

And i love you in the Lord at the same time but the salvation doctrine is a basic teaching that must be resolved and it CAN BE resolved for any believer struggling with it, not by me or anyone else but by the covicting Power of the Holy Spirit of God and His Word, through either, me or Bill or Audrey or any believer whose foundation of FAITH is on the Rock of Salvation found in Jesus the Messiah and not in our works to maintain something we did not earn in any shape or form in the first place...

It must be resolved for the believer's sake to be able to rest in Lord Who has saved us from our works once and for all and because if not resolved, can be a stumbling block preventing us to be profiting fully of the fellowship with God and His wonderful blessings because people belive more that way in the wrath of God than in the enduring Mercy of the Lord.

So may i suggest dear brothert in the Lord that if you feel that this dog has been beaten up to the bone for you that you would just let those who truly seek the answer on this not be discouraged for the answer is in the Word and revealed by our Teacher the Holy Spirit.

Your brother in Christ

Serge

The interesting part is that even though the Bride was chosen, the Bride also has to make a choice. By doing so, true love for the Bridegroom would be shown. As I said in the past, God chooses and people also choose. Totally understandable? no - but totally believable by faith. The plan is God's, the work is God's so then why would He allow anyone to foil His plan?

I know this we have had lots of discussion in the past with my position being greatly outnumberd by those not agreeing. However, to me, this makes the most sense of Scripture. I am part of God's plan, I was chosen by Him to be part of the Bride of Christ and I can count on Him to carry out His plan to fulfillment. As Kelley says "If He gave you the faith to ask, He will use that same faith to sustain you." Nothing gives me greatest comfort, pleasure and a desire to serve Him any way I can while I have breath on this earth. I can confidently say with Paul in 2 Timothy 1:12 - "...nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

Growing in Him - Joanne

As Joanne said we all have to make a choice. We either serve God or we don't. Does our serving come with conditions? No it doesn't, but I feel that each day we need to make the choice of either serving God or not. Each day we need to make the choice of being obedient to God or not. Each day we align ourselves with God or we don't, that is our choice.

Does that choice effect who we are? Yes most definitely. Does that choice effect whose we are? I believe it does. Can we become sons and daughters of Satan? Most certainly we can. Do we do it willing? Yes in most cases we do.

We choose to ignore what we know is right in order to satisfy our flesh. We choose to make the wrong decisions. Will God stop us? No he won't, because we have free will and we have the God given right to exercise that free will. When we knowing and whole-heartedly choose to sin, we also choose our eternal destiny and that isn't sitting on a puffy white cloud playing a harp.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

Dr Kelley's view here in this particular study might be simplistic at first glance but we got to remember that i took it from his website where he answers to the questions of the public in general and probably to an individual in particular, i have no idea but i know that he often does this and that he can also be very precise theologicly speaking and go into great depths in some of of his end times studies or any particular topic in general.

To come back to this topic with you Joanne, the points where we might disagree might be very minute and minimal,i agree with you that God does the drawing, gives the faith to the new believer to say yes and that a decision must be made by the believer, and it is probably the point of disagreement here... Now that said, this far, God did all the work to bring the believer up to the plate to make that decision to accept the free gift or freely reject it and if that person has 2 cents worth of intelligence and a heart softened by the Holy Spirit's intervention and the prayers of intercession of people, that person now decides to accept that free gift with a sincere heart, salvation being a one moment miracle occurs, 2 days later, the Holy Spirit baptizes that person, the person is now sealed and desires to sincerely follow Messiah Jesus. What is hard to understand for me anyway is that some, although God did everything in Love and Power and by the intercession prayers of this person's accointances or family members, to attract that person in the family of God, decides to freely reject the free gift because of wealth or a hardened heart, that is where the decision part hurts because we all have a part to play there and it does not take anything away from God's plan, God has always had foreknowledge of those who would play that role of saying yes to Him but some way, somehow, it is as if we cannot see nor judge who will make it to Heaven and thus have to fulfill God's Great Commission of Matthew 28 because we, do not know who will decide positively to want to know(Ginosko) Him or consciously reject Him.

Salvation is a one moment miracle where the human being has to decide, sanctification is a lifetime learning curve and a long walk in repentance and humbleness that God will accomplish in us as we yield in free love towards Him.

Brother Chucky, yes, the overall view of Scriptures teach that if you are genuinely saved, sealed, stamped by God's Grace and have His Name on your forehead, your name written in the Lamb's book of life, that you are already sitting with Him in Heaven as the book of Hebrews suggests, time only pertains to here, God being eternal, we are simply waiting for Him to take us home, it is as if everything has already happened...

Remember this bro, that once you are a genuine child of God, sealed and knowing what you would go back to, that your life would be so miserable that you could not live happily, you would cry your way back to Jesus because of the discipline of the Holy Spirit of God, i can assure you that i have tasted it last year after a simple 2 weeks episode where i was not reading my Bible, i was crying on my balcony and begged God to bring me back to His Word, and He gracefully did, i was so miserable not being fed by His Word...

Love you folks in the Lord, be encouraged, the Lord will soon return.

Brother Serge

not a chance, i am staying as close as can be to my Father now, like this kid tied around the leg of his father pic, ya know?

: )

Accepting from the heart.
The spirit is the guide.
We grow ...we fall...we get back up.
No one is ever perfect.

Christ could not have died for part of our sins ' Only '
Where would or could you draw a line in anyones life, saying you stepped over the line?

If anyone could come to Christ - be forgiven - be given Eternal Life
and then lose it > then Christ death was for what?
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It's all about Him !

"For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again...." (Proverbs 24:16)

Last Edited on Nov 10, 2009 4:40 AM

Jesus Bless,
Chucky <*))><

Tyler

I understand what you and the others are saying on this subject, however Dr. Missler, Dr. DuPlantis, the Berean Call, Zola Levitt, any Dr. or PHD of Biblical studies can say what they interpret as to what the Bible says and write a book or go on TV or the internet and tell their interpretation. However my brother that is all that it is. It is "their interpretation." I can do the same thing. Am I right?

The problem is we are listening to what men say and not what God says. Most of the time when we listen to God or what we think is God we listen with the teachings of men in our heads instead of erasing those teachings and really listening to God. If you go before God and ask God to give you the truth He will. James 1:5. Will He give it to you today? Maybe maybe not. You might have to wait on the LORD for several weeks maybe months but eventually He will give you all truth. Believe in what the LORD says and not what man says.

Here's a question for you. When Jesus preached the Gospel, which Gospel did He preach?
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

Last Edited on Nov 10, 2009 12:38 PM

1- the fruits of the Spirit are with him;

2- he advises us not to believe him nor anyone else but to be a Berean and check all things and to rely on the Holy Spirit and the Word of God as means of exegetical source.

3- I verified every lead i have studied with that man and so far, his teachings concerning the Word of God are very sound and sometimes provocative but Mr Missler is a very thorough and respected scholar.

4- he does not want anyone to put him up there, he is a simple man, i met him in person, very brilliant though.

I studied with him and Ravi Zacharias, Pastor Rod and other human teachers but never forget that we are also called and encouraged by these men to study on our own with the Holy Spirit as main Teacher so it is not their interpretation that matters but what we allow the Scriptures to tell us in the big picture sense. And so far, Scriptures as a whole litterally tell me that my eternity started the day i gave my life to Christ...

It is all in the interpretation...

OSAS or LS...One is right, One is wrong !

But it has to be the way We interpret it not the way someone tells us to interpret it.

We all stand on what we believe the Bible says.

I have heard it said that The Bible is Gods Word speaking to me and you.

I don't believe it is the Bible speaking to you to tell me.

I know we all have problems and sometimes it is nice to ask someones advice and get an opinion on what a verse says, but in the end it is our interpretation of what the Bible says that we have to go on.

We can not stand on one verse alone, but have to take the Bible as a whole....If you can prove your point then I believe you could be right.

The reason I am neutral on this subject is that I have over the years heard both sides argued again and again, and there are good verses, and good points for both.
Although I tend to think you can lose your salvation if you get far enough away from the Lord(I don't know how far) I respect someone with a view of OSAS.

At one time I did debate others at meetings we had, but I don't anymore.
I just want to enjoy my salvation and let the debating to others.
I just make comments in here, when i think something is wrong.

Jesus Bless,
Chucky <*))><

Peace in Christ,

Tyler

Jesus bless,
Chucky <*))><

Instead let's focus on what unifies & edifies us in Christ. Let's look unto Him, the author & finisher of our faith. We'll all be better off for it.

Tyler

The Lord Jesus bless you all

Serge

Response:
I agree with most of this except the part about God giving faith to the new believer. I believe God gives the faith beforehand in order for that person to believe. After that, of course, it is the work of the Holy Spirit to grow that faith.

Serge:
Now that said, this far, God did all the work to bring the believer up to the plate to make that decision to accept ….one moment miracle occurs, 2 days later, the Holy Spirit baptizes that person, the person is now sealed and desires to sincerely follow Messiah Jesus.

Response:
If God does all the work, why would He not finish it?

Also, the moment one believes he is infused with the Holy Spirit not 2 days or any time later. That person is sealed immediately upon belief.

Serge:
What is hard to understand for me anyway is that some, although God did everything in Love and Power and by the intercession prayers of this person's accointances or family members, to attract that person in the family of God, decides to freely reject the free gift because of wealth or a hardened heart…

Response:
Again, if God is doing all the work, is His work not perfect? Just as He is perfect? A perfect God can only perform a perfect work. Anything less would be contrary to who He is. If His work is perfect then it can not be stopped midway through - it will be completed just as He had planned.

Serge:
God has always had foreknowledge of those who would play that role of saying yes to Him

Response:
1 Peter 1:1, 2: “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood…”

What does it mean that God had foreknowledge?
1. Some say that God knows who is going to accept Him ahead of time so those are the ones that He chooses to be His elect. (example: in my business I need a new employee. I know that Carol is going to accept the job, therefore I offer it to her.)
2. The Greek word for “foreknowledge” refers to the knowledge that God has from the beginning that He would choose some to be His own. (example: I need a new employee and I know that when Carol applies for it I will hire her - in this case it was my plan all along to hire Carol, therefore I had the “foreknowledge of what I was going to do.)

In light of this look at 1 Peter 1:20 “He (Christ) indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world….” Peter uses a related verb (foreordained) which means the same thing (foreknowledge). Basically, can we say that God knew that Jesus would choose to die so therefore He chose Him to be the Saviour? Certainly not.

Similarly, we cannot say that God knew who would accept Him ahead of time and so then chose them for salvation. In keeping with the correct meaning of “foreknowledge” in this verse, we need to say that it was in God’s plan and purpose, before the foundation of the world, to have an intimate relationship with some whom He would choose to receive salvation.

Why else would He say in Matthew 7:23 about those who will come to Him and say “Hey Lord didn’t we do all these great things in your Name” and He will respond “I never knew you, depart from me…”
In John 10:14 Jesus states “I am the Good shepherd and I know My own and My own know Me”

God knows them because He chose them for His own.

Serge:
somehow, it is as if we cannot see nor judge who will make it to Heaven and thus have to fulfill God's Great Commission of Matthew 28 because we, do not know who will decide positively to want to know(Ginosko) Him or consciously reject Him.

Response:
I agree with you here. We do not know the ones God has chosen for salvation, therefore it is our duty to preach the Gospel to everyone.

I guess the hard part for me to accept, in what you say, is this. If God, through the Holy Spirit does the work before hand; if the person realizes the depth of their sin and lostness; if their heart has been softened; if they have been given the desire to have the slate wiped clean and to have a relationship with God - then after all of this, why would that person choose not to “go for it?”

I truly think that the only ones who would not choose God are those who have not been prepared by the Spirit beforehand.

Chucky: I have heard it said that The Bible is Gods Word speaking to me and you.

Response:
I agree wholeheartedly with this. That is why when God says "I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish" I have to take Him at His word and apply that word to my thinking. In my study of worldviews on the creation/evolution topic, that process is called "exegesis" - taking God's Word and applying it to the world.

Chucky:
I personally think it only cause hard feeling between friends...because there are as manny pro as there are con...I say drop the subject
Deacon: Whenever this topic comes up it always creates more heat than light. Therefore, I suggest we all throw ourselves on the mercy of God & stop trying to figure out who's right & who's wrong.

Response:
Interesting posts and no they do not cause hard feeling on my part. And I have no desire to prove a "right" or "wrong" only to show what I have learned just as you do the same. I don't mind discussing this topic as many times as necessary. Everytime we go through it new points come up which cause me to dig deepter. You guys are the "iron that sharpen iron" so thank you.

Growing in Him - Joanne

To the first point, i think we are in agreement, the only thing i see there is the willingness of the believer to yield considering where that individual is in terms of weakness of the flesh, we both have to take into consideration that someone may willingly backslide by discouragement when a religious culture is behind that person, especially with new believers who want to do so much for the Lord that the stumbling resembles the walk of a baby : )

Second point, Yes God will finish what HE started in us, no doubt, i don't see any disagreement there, all i could see would be the loss of rewards for not running the race or not doing our calling, not yielding to the Holy Spirit properly.

To your 4th point, you wrote:

Response:
Again, if God is doing all the work, is His work not perfect? Just as He is perfect? A perfect God can only perform a perfect work. Anything less would be contrary to who He is. If His work is perfect then it can not be stopped midway through - it will be completed just as He had planned.

No denying, indeed God is perfect, and make perfect things even our free will is perfect in the sense that it is part of in His plan and that free will belongs to us so our decisions, whether good or bad, do not affect His perfection in any way. It is just sad that some choose to reject Him since we are not robots but called to freely love Him. Tragedy of all human history by the way. : (

To your more developped last point, i think we all learn in that department that can at times give brain cramps but nonetheless, it is a fascinating topic where i come to terms with it by an overall view of the Scriptures that says to me that God wills that none perish but all come to repentance, i remember that Jesus stands at the door and knocks, if you hear His voice today, do not harden your heart, this overall view makes me think that God will draw all men unto Him and that means that the Holy Spirit will in indeed tug at the heart of every soul He create, i firmly believe that we were all appointed to eternal life but as the Lord says, my people die because they lack knowledge.

I guess both our views are reconciled at the Great Commission for both of us do see that a decision must be made by every soul.

in The Lord

Serge

Last Edited on Nov 12, 2009 10:39 AM

He puts away our sin and, He does not recall what He has called us to do, myself included. I feel drawn by the Holy Ghost constantly. Five years ago it was the prison ministry. Several so-called "opportunities" came to me over those five years but none "felt right," or gave me the Holy Spirit-approved opportunity to fulfill the calling.

Then one day about a year ago a man came to our church because he had heard of our extensive outreach into the community. He was in the prison ministry. A year later I now have fulfilled the calling, the tugging of the Holy Ghost. The day I filled out that application it felt like, well ... it's unexplainable. It was similar when my wife said "yes" only I had said yes to Christ Jesus.

You can banter on and on about backsliding, but I'm living proof that it can happen to anyone. Think of the TV evangelists who have sinned but were not forsaken by God and His Son. Perhaps we are never what we were intended for, but he still uses us.

I will say this: since the indwelling of the Holy Spirit other gifts have come to me, more than I can list. The more we pour outselves into Christ and the Holy Spirit, the harder it is for Satan to drive his sinful nail into us.

In Him,
bill

The indwelling of the Spirit is serious, He did not say that He would leave us or forsake us every time we fall, i mean, He would constantly be going in and out of me...

He knew i was seriously sincere when i invited Him in and those who are truly born again and know what it means, know what we are talking about, we can put this whole topic to rest...for now anyways : )

Serge said-The indwelling of the Spirit is serious, He did not say that He would leave us or forsake us every time we fall, i mean, He would constantly be going in and out of me...

My brother I'm going to start to get serious here because the LORD keeps impressing me that the time for finding our way is so short that we have no real idea how close it is. And honestly we as believers don't seem to have the answers ourselves so how can we move to save the lost when we too are lost?

The Holy Spirit doesn't leave us when we screw up and sin! That would be foolish brother. If you believe in the "New" covenant then we have the Holy Spirit in us from the get go. It is our conscience and it tells us right from wrong. Will the Holy Spirit ever leave us no I don't believe it will, but what I believe is that we can weaken it to the point to where it is ineffectual. We can tuck it away so deep that we might have to really dig to find it again.

I really fear for all of our brethren because we, ourselves, seem so unteachable. I mean that with respect. See my being new at this and being naturally curious I'm like a sponge, I soak up everything. I then take it before the LORD and wait for understanding it may take an hour it may take a week or two, but I do get answers.

I highly respect each of you, and each of you is very unique. Serge, Joanne, Vlad, Audrey, Chucky, Bill, and many many more look up verses and look up teachings and then bring them to the table, and I respect you for that. However the teachings you bring to the table are all from the same guys. You have found teachers that line up with what you believe and then you quote them over and over again. You don't look outside of the box that you have created for yourselves.

I don't listen to anyone in particular. I listen to Rabbi Synder, Hal Lindsay, and various others as the LORD draws me to them. It isn't any one group or teaching I grab on to. I listen to Rod Hembree everyday because I am following along with reading the Bible through in a year, but lately his teachings have left me very concerned. They grieve my spirit so I need to pay attention. My Rabbi said some things a couple of weeks ago that grieved me too, but after taking them before the LORD, HaShem showed me the truth, and that is what happens with all of these teachers.

What we have is Jesus in a box. We have Jesus teaching one Gospel, and then we have Paul teaching another and never the twain shall meet. Think about that if you will. When you finally see the difference in the two Gospels you will comprehend all that I have been saying here since I started.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

Good day sir and God bless..

Serge

Jesus said that if we loved Him we would keep His commandments. Well, those that love Him are trying to do just that, whether they believe in OSAS or not. Love God and love our neighbour. The 10 commandments are tied up in these two. The Scripture does not say that we should live contrary to the commandments, but that we are not bound by them. We are not told to murder, commit adultery, etc. but we are told to love our neighbour, and that means not doing those things.

We can go on and on about whether we are sealed by the HS and can never lose our salvation, or whether we must continually earn it (perhaps not the best way to phrase it)... but if we live to please the LORD, He will not hold that against us. He already knows where we will succeed and where we will fail.

It is indeed time to end this debate.

I pray, Heavenly Father, that You will continue to guide us and to protect us as we seek wisdom to better understand Your Word. Help us to see the true meaning of the passages that seem obscure and cause dissention. Paul said that we see through the glass darkly. Help us, LORD, to discern the true meaning of what we read. Keep us in Your Word, and build a hedge around all of us, and protect us from backsliding. LORD, we pray to remain always under the shadow of Your Wings. I thank you LORD, for the brothers and sisters that pour out their hearts on this forum. They are a blessing to me and many others. Praise the LORD! Amen.

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Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

Last Edited on Nov 14, 2009 9:28 AM

I have a ring that says He died 4 me, I live 4 Him. That is the way it needs to be living for Him.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi