Any idea if the people who passed away before the Messiah came would be given the opportunity to hear the Gospel or has it already happened?

God Bless YOU all and thestreamtv

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Jesus is a God of second chances. However, Christ set in stone--literally--the "new rules" of salvation. "I am the way, the truth and the life," He said in John 14:6. Christ is the Redeemer. When He came to earth it was for sinners. He even went after those who put themselves in hell, Sheol, Hades, however one choses to pronounce it.

Men like Moses, Jacob and others who believed in God, and also a coming Messiah, went to heaven. How do we know? Because in Mark 9 Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus. It certainly wasn't from hell!

Read Isaiah 53:8. It reads in part: "...and they made His grave with the wicked." That entire passage has to do with His redemption of mankind and three days in hell.

However, that was all BEFORE and during Christ's death and resurrection. As anah stated, there is now only "one chance to accept the Lord" and live in heaven. That's why in John 3:3 Christ told Nicodemus: "... unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." And again Christ's statement in John 14:6

There are too many "ghost" shows on TV. I have never in my 63 years seen so many paranormal shows on television. Whatever happened to Roy Rodgers? (I know, I know!)

In the Lord,
bill

For the rest, my understanding is that anyone who died before Christ came to earth would be judged by the laws of Moses if they were Jewish. If they were not exposed to the God of Israel, God indicts all creation anyway because proof of Him is everywhere. According to Psalm 19: 1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork." God requires us to earnestly search for Him and He will be found.

God loves all mankind and wished none to perish. In fact, many muslims and others are coming to Christ because of dreams - surely because they cried out to God for the Truth. Hebrews 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

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Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

And if that is the case that they were resurrected at that time how does that fair for the idea that Paul puts forth about being absent from the body is to be in the presence of the LORD? What happens to Sheol, Hades, and hell?

I'm not looking to start trouble just asking questions I have no smart alec remarks looking for answers is all.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

Last Edited on Nov 2, 2009 10:36 AM

to your first question, yes, the graves were indeed opened and many dead were seen wandering in Jerusalem, Jesus only resurrected once and those dead people that were raised are now with Christ in Heaven i would say, it would a;so make sense in terms of showing us the events that will probably happen at the rapture, that those who are asleep in Christ shall rise first then we who are alive shall follow them to meet the Lord in the clouds and be with Him forever.

To your second question, it would then align itself with the cross being the central focus in time where prior to the cross, sheol seemed to be the place where those who fell asleep while waiting on the coming Messiah were. At the cross, it is said that Jesus brought our sins to hell and made a spectacle of death and that after the cross, those who die in Christ are directly with Him, sheol probably being gone as a waiting place but hell still existing for those who rejected the Savior.

Hoping this would help but i would wait on someone who might either infirm or confirm what i just wrote.

Best to you

Serge

Last Edited on Nov 2, 2009 12:00 PM

Let me see if I get this! So what you are saying is those that died prior to the cross were just waiting in the ground until the resurrection of Christ, right?

If that is what you are saying then I have a question concerning Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moshe, David, &c. In Jude 1:9 Michael rebuked Satan over Moshe's body. Does that mean that the Patriachs were not in heaven before the resurrection?

I ask this for two reasons. My Rabbi made a statement that we just go to the ground (as the Jehovah's Witnesses do) until the rapture! He also states that we will be here on earth and that there is no reason for us to go to heaven since we were never promised a place in heaven only here on earth! I don't buy that either because that goes against the idea of the Father's house and if we are going to stay here on earth why the rapture? Jesus would have waited and had the marriage supper here on earth.

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

in my limited understanding of such a complex topic, to your first question, i would say :

That the patriarchs' bodies were in the graves but their spirits with Christ and that would be in accord with time and space here but God is living outside our time and space constraints in what is called eternity. Jesus reminded us that God said to Moshe that He was the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, the God of the living and not of the dead so their bodies might have been in the ground but their spirits with the Messiah whom they trusted would come.

At the rapture, i think what will happen is in line with what Paul said, that we will be clothed with new bodies because the body that we have now cannot enter Heaven, we will be clothed with our perfect bodies, maybe because we will all get those new bodies all at once? : )

Laura, Joanne, Audrey, Vlad, anyone else with more insights?

So we go back to the verse to absent from the body is to be present with the LORD!

Now then going back to the original question then, the graves that opened up at Yeshua's resurrection did these people just get their new bodies and they were showing them off? If not where did they come from and what were they doing there? Now that is going back to the verse to be absent from the body....

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

Men of faith in God of the OT were in the land of the Living because Jesus said so. Moses and Elijah were at the mount of transfiguration with Jesus. They were recognized by John, Peter and Andrew. How and why? I don't have a picture of Moses. Jesus didn't introduce them to the apostles so how did they know them? When Jesus was glorified and came back to meet the disciples he could walk through walls, eat, be at one place and another....He had how many different dimensions? To me this is the new body of Christ.

John 14,15 through to the end of John tells you more than once why you will see Jesus when you take your last breath here. "I go to prepare a place for you.... so where I AM you will be also John 14:3
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
There is no dispute of our last breath as believers here is our first sight of Jesus in all His Glory. Amen

Thanks sis!

Serge

Many believe the two witnesses spoken of in Rev. 11:3 are Moses and Elijah. I posted this once and got some interesting "opinions," but regardless of who the two men are, they would have been resurrected in the Rapture and returned to do God's bidding during the first three years of the Trib. The Bible tells us the Antichrist "overcomes them" and they lay dead in the streets of Israel three and a half days. (This represents the 3 1/2 years of false peace.)

These men died, came back to life in the "taking up," and then came back to do God's work and were killed again. (Boy, what we don't have to do to serve our Lord, huh?)

Good post, Laura. That's my gal!

Bro. bill

Last Edited on Nov 4, 2009 2:05 AM

When Jesus was on earth in His flesh, none of the people He "raised" from the death were in glorified bodies; that is a given okay? We are agreed on that point right?

Moshe, died and the Archangel Michael came to retrieve the body we are agreed on that correct?

Enoch, and Elijah were both translated or transformed and never saw death. Are we agreed on that?

Mary, and all of the Apostles recognized Jesus in His glorified body, so why are you saying that the dead walking the streets of Jerusalem after Jesus died on the cross would not have had new bodies? They had died once already if can we agree on that, so if God raised them from the dead and not Jesus (because he was on His way to Hell to drop off a load of sin) then would they not have had their newly formed bodies?

By the way Bill, I believe that the two witnesses will be Enoch and Elijah because niether of them died. As the scripture states every man is appointed to die once, and they didn't yet so I believe they will be the witnesses.

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

A Glorified body and a "raised from the dead" body would be different.
Jesus is God. He cannot be compared to the others.

Being raised from the dead, is the same body and because it is still happening today we can know this, right? Why are people be raised from death today? Maybe a better question is by whom are they being raised from the dead.

Luk 24:16 But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.
This Scripture shows that Jesus decided when to let people see Him ....but if you read the gospels the angels had to tell everyone where Jesus would be.
Even Mary didn't recognize Jesus until He told her who He was.

Thomas is the one who has the greatest message here.
He was there when Jesus raised the dead during the ministry. He couldn't believe Jesus was alive. And, he was told!
He was the one who said;"My Lord and my God."

Therein lies the difference between the raised from the dead body and the Glorified body of God.
Understanding here that "glorified" is the leaving behind the corruptible body.

As for the two witnesses, why does this matter?

wliJ

Just off the top of my head I think we are comparing apples and oranges here. I'm not comparing anyone to Jesus only to the fact that the walking dead on the day Christ died on the Cross were not the same as those that were brought back to life when Jesus raised Lazurus for instance. These walking dead would have been restored as you said so people would recognize them, but when they were raised they were already dead and it doesn't say that they returned to the grave so are we to assume that they rose to heaven also and if so did they have their ressurrection bodies?

As for the two witnesses that was for Bill!
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1 Peter 3:18-22 (King James Version)
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Some people say the Lord went there to proclaim the victory to those who await the resurrection, but why is this needed? remember the incident with the demon possessed who said "Have You come here to torment us before the time?" thats Mat 8:29. If they new of the Lords place then, then why would the Lord have went to hades to declare victory. I'm gonna answer my own question: "because they were held captive in captivity and were not the spirits that were free to roam the first Heaven that the Lord now has all authority over.
God Bless you all.

Now the question that I don't know is if Paradise was taken to Heaven and the Saints are still in Paradise, or if they are in Heaven itself. Maybe someone could fill me in on this...

Jesus bless,
Chucky <*))><

Very interesting statement you made about paradise, where is that in the Bible? I have never heard that and I would like to look at that.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

But what Chucky said is true, the blood of calves or the holocausts could only atone for the sins of Israel, i think there is something about that in the book of Hebrews...

bill

You're right about the atonement part but you're missing so much more to it than just atonement. It was much more involved than just a blood sacrifice, and covering sin. It is the entire basis of worship that God wanted us to follow even today he expects us to follow the examples of the offerings. They are the models of our repentance and our humility before the LORD God.

The High Priest (Jesus or Yeshua) is the intercessor for us. As we pray to the Father (HaShem), Yeshua makes pleas for us, and it is HaShem that gives us forgiveness of our sins. Yeshua was the lamb but it is HaShem that orders the slate to be cleansed. Yeshua stands in the gap for us like we do for our brothers and sisters, but it is HaShem that grants us our hearts desires. Yeshua always deferred to the Father and that is the way it is today. Yeshua (Jesus) may be a manifestation of God or part of the Godhead, but we must remember He still is number 2 behind the Father (HaShem). I think we have a tendency to forget that.

If you take this picture of how worship is to go, do you see how Jonzy gets a different view of the Trinity? The difference is that we see the Father in a different light. His ways are not our ways and they are so far above us that we cannot comprehend them in our terms.

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

Last Edited on Nov 6, 2009 12:06 PM

Holocaust is in my French version of the Darby Bible, meaning a burnt offering. You don't have it in yours, in the English version?

There ain't no such animal...

Chucky <*))><