Revelation 2:4 - to the church in Ephesus - “but I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Remember then from where you have fallen and repent and do the deeds you did at first…”

Examples of backsliding:
- Samson gave in to Delilah.
- David committed adultery and murder.
- Peter denied Christ.

All of these came back. Why?
They were dependant upon a God who promised to keep them and the work of the Holy Spirit who would bring their sanctification to completion. The Holy Spirit controls a believer’s sanctification, the ultimate purpose being to “conform us to the image of His Son.”
- Romans 8:29 - 29 “For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son”
- 2 Cor 3:18 “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.”

What does the Spirit do in the life of the believer?

1. Reveales & Teaches divine truth:
- John 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”

2. Indwells the believer:
- Romans 8:99 “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His“.

3. Seals the believer in Christ (the Spirit is the believer’s guarantee for eternity):
- Eph. 4:30 “And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption“.

4. Baptizes the believer into union with Christ & other believers:
- 1 Cor. 12:13 “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.”

5. Enables the believer for service:
- Acts 1:8 “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

6. Fills believer:
- Ephesians 5:18 “And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit”
Note: “be filled” means to keep on being filled; it is not a one-time thing but an ongoing process; as one follows the leading of the Spirit they are being filled and vice versa.

7. Aids the believer to pray:
- Romans 8:26 “Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered”

8. Guides in the ministry of the church, calling men to various offices and endowing them with qualifications for their work:
- Acts 13:2 - “As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

9. Convicts the believer of sin & leads him to repentance:
- John 16:7-8 - "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment”

There are evidences in a person’s life if they are true believers. Obedience to Christ shows one's belief in Him. As well the Spirit produces fruit in a believer’s life - these may not be evidenced all at once but are produced at various times in differing degrees depending on our willingness to obey and learn.

- Galatians 5:22 “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness”
- James 1: “But be ye doers of the Word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves”
- Matthew 7:16-18 “You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.“

In the long run, however, only God knows the true condition of one’s heart.

Growing in Him - Joanne

Next - Apostasy

Last Edited on Oct 30, 2009 6:06 PM

When we love the Lord more than anyone we know, we can bow down and say we are sorry. There is no question whether or not He will forgive us. His nail-printed hand is always out first, long before we ever realize what jerks we've become or are leading to.

I guess that's why I love that story of the footprints in the sand. Christ gave us so many examples of how to love the unloved, how to love the ones we love, and how to forgive, forgive, forgive ...

As you say Sister Joanne, "... only God knows the true condition of one's heart." Amen and amen!

In My Lord and Savior,
bill

To play devil's advocate here, what about the believer that has fallen for as Bill put it the love of money.

We have a scenario of a young man like the prodigal son who recieved a large inheiritence (Lotto winnings) and now he has more money than he knows what to do with. A gentleman won the PA lottery and he got so much money that he could literally spend $1,000.00 a day and never touch the principle. This man instead of feeding a small nation or helping out food banks goes out everyday and spends that $1,000.00 on himself. He ate at the best restaurants, played games (gambles) and went to amusment parks everyday. True story.

He never helped out his fellow man; stopped going to Church because all they wanted him to do was give money to charity &c. This guy has been this way for 10 to 15 years. Oh and by the way he plays the lotto everyday. Some would say he is a back-slider and others would say he never was converted. What say you all about this?

Honestly if he doesn't die first he may very well turn around if he loses everything, but he is so careful not to spend more than he brings in, in one day I doubt he would run out of money.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

Growing in Him - Joanne

I don't think I am judging scripture by the behavior of others I think I am comparing the behavior of others to the scripture to see how the production of fruit measures up to what the scripture says.

We as believers are not to judge our brothers and sisters but we can look at the fruit that is being produced and in this case I don't see too much if any. My question was do you believe he is a back-slider or was he never converted? I'm looking to see if we can establish a baseline to work from!

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

Faith, family, friends are the order I heard a great man of God once say.

The world might say we all live in glass houses???? :)

wliJ

I condemned myself to that short but terrible period of not walking with God. Watch your step or you could look down and see dung on your feet. Be careful, very careful.

I tell the prisoners I witness and preach to that Christ will forgive them anything they have done, or will do. So many people have lied to them it's almost too much for them to believe. Then I tell them my story, and but for the Grace of God I would have been where they now are. I tell them God is no respecter of persons. He will make a preacher out of a criminal faster than He might a rich man with everything.

In no way do I, nor will I, come across to these men with an attitude that I'm better then they: no, worse. It's Christ they want to look at, not me. And to Him only do I point. Everything else is simply retoric.

"Judge not lest ye be judged." I've said it a hundred times on here, and I'll say it again: you get too cocky in the Lord and He'll bring you down a peg or two, but it won't be the way you want. Trust me. Take it from me. Been there. Won't go again.

bill

Once again I must not be making myself clear. Joanne stated that once we have the Holy Spirit and we do backslide then eventually the Holy Spirit will provide enough conviction to bring us back.

Alright, many young people fall prey to college professors and college life and move away from God. Let's just say that one slips away from God and turns his back on God. As you say the Holy Spirit goes after him but over the course of say a year this person has hardened his heart enough to be able to not hear the Holy Spirit anymore.

He is into all kinds of sin, one night he is out with his buddies and he is killed in a car accident. He hasn't had time to return what's the final out come that you surmise?

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

My son read the Bible before I did and I believe he accepted Christ but because he married a divorced woman he believed he had to choose between God and his wife. So my son is "in" lawless country according to the "law police of Scripture"?

I don't believe it for one minute or second.

God's love is greater than my son's misinformation.
And, I testify to the fact that I didn't help him because at the time of his problem with Scripture, I was into legalism and my witness was lost on him.
I didn't show him the Love of Christ. I showed him the punishment to the non believer!!!!!

God's love is greater than our stupid ways because His ways are higher than our minds can conceive!
The Holy Spirit's resurrection power can do anything!
Jesus loves the sinner and hates the sin and forgives it.(past, present and future)

If I don't love my son and forgive him, what does God do with me?

So, while you're doing the "what ifs", why don't you and I pray for the reuniting of our children to the Jesus we may have misrepresented to them.

wLIJ

I probably would have gone to heaven, but I can't believe I could have held my stupid head up high before my Lord and God! That's not the way I wanted to go before Him. (Who does though,right?}

I'm not interested these days in whether or not I, or anyone else, for that matter, is good enough. I'm only interested in whether or not they know the Lord. None of us are perfect, no not one, so there goes the "we have to be perfect" theories. And I'm not stating you said that, only that I read it into your prose.

When I wrote for the Lord I had to be very careful I didn't get a big head. After all, people were coming into the newspaper office telling me they used them in their Bible studies, in Sunday school classes, etc.

But God does have a sense of humor: he sent pompus mainline preachers, who probably never had someone give their life to Christ at their alters, come down on me hard because I had not graduated from a siminary. I told them this:

"I was saved by grace, not in any church. I was called to write for Him. Just make sure you're doing your job, and I'll try and do mine for Him, His way."

My main interest these days, my driving goal, is to find the lost and lead them to the Living Water to drink. I don't care what they do, where they go, or who they are with, I want to introduce them to Christ Jesus. Let him judge them.

I lost my pride and cockiness when I backslid. I lost the home I built and lived in for 28 years. My wife of 33 years walked out the door, and my two daughters followed. My mid-six figure income business was gone and I sat at my kitchen table with greedy real estate sales people telling me how wonderful they were, with $52 to my name.

Curious? Yeah: "Do you know Christ as your Savior?" That's the only question I have these days. (The Stream Academy answers the deeper ones I wish to know.) I guess that's why I get a little "picky" sometimes on here. I don't think anything, anything in this world today is worth anything to me but finding the lost. After a stormy 31 years with the Lord, I have this sense of urgency to find the lost. Sometimes I think I embarrass my wonderful wife, but she says not.

Sorry I "preached." [It's a calling.]

bill

Last Edited on Nov 5, 2009 1:43 PM

My son is a homosexual. He has been in this life style for 14 years that we know of probably 4 or 5 before that. My son will not talk to me or my wife and he has not, off and on, for last 4 years. But now it has been at least a full year. He will not return our phone calls and he has us blocked from his emails. If we send snail mail he sends it back.

He was going to go into the priesthood hoping that he would get the help he needed to be celibate. That didn't work out so now after many years he feels comfortable with who he is, but he can't have anything to do with us because we remind him of who he is. So he casts us away.

Do we forgive him? Of course we do. Do we pray for him every day? Of course we do. Do we love him unconditionally? Of course we do. Will he accept us? No, he won't. In fact he has threatened us with a hate crimes law suit if we try to contact him any more.

What do you do in that case? You get on your knees every day and ask God to open the eyes of their hearts, and open their minds to see the lies of the devil, but we must be diligent and pray unceasingly for the lost even if they are in your very own family.

Laura I could tell you stories that would make your hair curl. What my wife and I have gone through at the hands of our families is appauling, but we have forgiven them all, and we pray for them every day because as Jesus said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."

Will these people go to hell, I honestly don't know. I hope not but that is out of my hands and in God's. My in laws, my brothers, my children, and my grandchildren are all walking the line of damnation and it frightens the daylights out of me. But they won't talk to us nor will they listen or even check things out for themselves. They call us cultic and they go to fortune tellers, spiritualists, all this junk and they call us nut bags for believing in Christ and the enemy Satan. They can accept God, but not Jesus Christ nor do they accept the idea of Satan. Which tells me that Satan already owns them.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

If he comes to Jesus...He will be forgiven, but the lifestyle will have to stop.
You can not have one foot in Jesus and the other foot in the world at the same time no matter what anyone says.

You do forgive your son. Jesus forgave you....You can not talk to someone who does not like you.
I knew a homosexual who was my best friend, but when we talked about the Lord I had to tell him he was bound for Hell if he kept in the style of living.

Jesus Bless,
Chucky <*))><

I have two homosexuals living next to me. I have on numerous occassions witnessed to them, but they turn a deaf ear and built a privacy fence. I hold out hope for the one: he'll talk to me when the other one is not around.

We hate the sin and not the sinner. That's what I was alluding to in the above post. Not that we don't have questions, but if we dwell on them it'll drive us wacky.

I am putting your son on my prayer list. Why do homosexuals think going into preisthoods or pastor positions will "make it all right" with God? And for any homosexual to hold a pastoral position is a sin. They must skip over II Cor. l and 2 and Romans 1-3.

In Him,
bill

None of us is going to heaven with sin. The Blood will wash it, remember.
Every sin you've mentioned has and is in my family so I'm really not going to argue at what the biggest sin is cause Scripture has already told us of the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. Those in any family aren't going to commit this one because they'd have to be a believer to do it!

Every person in our families can be claimed by us in Faith, and Grace will bring them home. Maybe not to our worldly home but definitely to our ultimate, everlasting home. This is all that matters. IJN

Just for edification, isn't gossip on the same line as homosexuality? I wonder how many gossips we'd see in a parade?
I know the answer.
None, they'd all be on the sidewalk waiting to talk about anyone going into the parade, right? :)

Response:
Sorry I didn’t read your question correctly.

Jf:
Alright, many young people fall prey to college professors and college life and move away from God. Let's just say that one slips away from God and turns his back on God. As you say the Holy Spirit goes after him but over the course of say a year this person has hardened his heart enough to be able to not hear the Holy Spirit anymore.
He is into all kinds of sin, one night he is out with his buddies and he is killed in a car accident. He hasn't had time to return what's the final out come that you surmise?

Response:
Scripture tells us that you will know believers by their fruit. That is one of the results of the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. That being said, there are times when true believers stumble and fall and it may take a short time or a long time for them to respond to the conviction of the Spirit. That’s the problem with sin - it makes one stubborn and blinds one to the truth. If one dies while they are in their sin they will not lose their salvation. That is guaranteed. However, they will lose rewards in heaven.

For the fellow in your story, if he was a true believer to start with, he will end up in heaven. It is difficult for us, as humans, to know what is in a man’s heart, so we cannot make a definite decision regarding a person that falls. I cannot see what is truly inside. I believe the Holy Spirit “grows” believers - some faster, others grow more slowly, but they all grow. If they do not; if there is no recognizable love for God, His Word, His people; if there is no spiritual fruit, then I would question that person’s salvation, however the ultimate truth is know to God only.

That’s about as far as I can go.

Growing in Him - Joanne

I know my son is bound for hell, in fact my first really heavy encounter with visions from the Holy Spirit was about my son literally burning in hell. Since then my wife and I have tried several times to get him to at least enter into a celibate lifestyle, and turn from what he is doing but he won't hear of it so here we are. That is why he won't talk to us any longer and the rest of the family that put down his lifestyle originally now are rallying around him telling him everything is okay.

Was he ever saved? Who really knows except God Almighty. This is why I have so much trouble with once saved always saved, as the LORD keeps showing me my son in hell.

I have also had dreams about the demons that are harrassing him and that they have been with him ever since he was a small boy. All we can do is keep praying for him and ask God to send a person into his life that my son will listen to about the LORD.

So Joanne you can see that I have a personal stake in this OSAS concept. Many folks tell me that if someone accepts Christ one time then slips away they are still saved. My son was going to be a priest, and I know that he truly believed that he would be able to lead a celibate life, but something happened to change all of that. The one thing that harrasses me is the fact that the dreams of my son in hell are real, and I do not believe they are of the devil, because I have prayed long and hard over my son. This is why cannot accept the OSAS concept.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

I need to say something,,Sometimes I lie,,sometimes I gossip..Have you ever noticed that the bible puts that together with homosexuality...

So a liar and a gossiper are in the the same group as homosexuals..interesting. Have I lost my salvation then?
I have a relative who is homosexual,,(my Dad taught me along time ago ,,not to use the word Gay,,Gay means happy,not this). I pray for her.
Keep praying for your son. God does answer prays. Please dont hit him with legalism,,just love..Love of Jesus, that is all he needs.
And we never know what the last seconds of life are.
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Walking in Faith

April

You are right the closer we get to God the harder Satan attacks. I have been literally held down on my bed three times by demons, twice I could not call out to the LORD because they held my mouth shut. Once they forced me face down on my bed so I could hardly breathe. But I finally broke free enough to cry out and send these demons packing if you will.

The LORD has spoken to me audibly, and He has spoken to me in many dreams. The LORD has awakened me in the middle of the night to pray for people I have never ever heard of and I have literally seen demons in my home and around the outside. My business is in my home so people come here with unclean spirits attached to them so I must clear the house daily.

I am under attack financially, physically, and spiritually everyday. I'm facing many financial problems caused by my family who are under the influence of the powers of darkness. My in laws did things that snowballed into on huge financial disaster for us. My one brother stole litereally hundreds of thousands of dollars from my mother's estate and forced my other brother into bankrutcy. Because I was not involved on a corporate level with my family's business I just got cheated out my share of the inheiritence.

Most of my dreams have been about keeping myself on the narrow path. Many times He has shown pitfalls of the other believers I was associated with and He has shown me who is in trouble and who needs help finding their way. My son is one that is in trouble and he is one that needs to find his way, hence showing me him in hell.

I was never a Catholic, I was an agnostic because I did believe in a supreme power but I never related that to God until 3 years ago. I read the Bible twice before I became a Christian but I only read it in a cursory fashion.

After reading all of the above do you think I might have a testimony for the LORD. He has taken me from being bitter and unforgiving to a person that cares so much for my fellow man that I can't even let a person suffer a loss that was only partially my fault. I'm paying out for damages to a person for a loss that he should have taken partial responsiblity for, but the LORD said to me to show my integrity and stand firm I will vindicate you. And he is.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

Romans 2:12-13 (New Living Translation)

12 When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. 13 For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.

You said- If one dies while they are in their sin they will not lose their salvation. That is guaranteed. However, they will lose rewards in heaven.

Romans 2:12 says that the gentiles will be destroyed. also further up in the chapter it talks about the gentiles hearing the law but not actually having the written law. It states that obeying the law makes us right with God.

How does that fit in with not losing salvation? Now also Joanne just for the record as I have said prior to this I actually saw my son in eternal hell fire. I know for a fact that he accepted Christ when he was 14 and was baptized. So how does this play into what you are saying?

I don't believe the LORD would have shown me that if it were not true. And because I have had this vision this is why I do not accept OSAS.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

Last Edited on Nov 6, 2009 10:46 AM

We Christians today are no different than the first Saints who set it all up for us. We will all suffer. I wonder why sometimes about various things: why does the Lord heal my knees and not my wife's? Why has the Lord let me live through three heart attacks and heal completely a major blood clot milimeters from killing me? (It was for a witness to my doctor, I later realized.)

What was written, JF, regarding sinning after we are saved and not losing our salvation is completely correct. We are only perfect after the Resurrection. We die in sins. What we do here on earth will be the crowns we receive. We are not to question but surge on. How many lost have we witnessed to recently? When was the last time you (I) led anyone to Christ? These are the crowning points. Sins are gone, gone, gone.

bill

Last Edited on Nov 6, 2009 12:12 PM

wLiJ

I have posted this before, but the dear black lady my wife and I asked to take home from the supermarket said, "Oh, not, not yet! I've just begun to 'shop.' Dear brother, I'm shopping for souls!"

I loved that woman. Haven't seen her in a while, but I know she's still "at it."

In Him,
bill

I try to witness everyday to someone. I get the chance by people coming to the office. I do intercessory prayer over the internet on two different webministries.

The sad part is if as you all say here then 90 per cent of the people I talk to think they are saved and by the standards put forth here they are saved. If at some point in their lives if they accepted Christ even on a whim and meant it at the time then they are saved.

Many of the people I pray for on the web say they are saved but they certainly don't seem to act it. But again if they accepted Christ once in their lives and meant it then they are saved according to what we are saying here.

And If you ask most people on the street they all know Jesus and they all are saved. Once in awhile I get someone that refuses to talk with me but most of the time they talk I give them a Bible track and I offer to pray with them but almost all refuse prayer they just want to kick me down the road as fast as possible.

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

Jesus is very careful not to put one works ahead of another. That was the treatise of His parable on the various fruits. I may give someone the word (planting), another may water that planting, and then still another is sent to reap that harvest. However, the planter is on the same plane as the watering and fertilizing persons as is the reaper.

While we all work in various ways, when we go before Christ and the Father our "works" will be tested by fire. Will it burn or hold up? THAT is the question we must constantly ask ourselves.

In Him,
bill

I try to live for the LORD, but I also know I live in the flesh. It certainly isn't easy. Woe is me??? no - rather, blessed am I that Jesus has saved me.
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Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

Last Edited on Nov 7, 2009 7:12 AM

As we all work towards a closer relationship with our Lord and Savior, individually, I believe He puts us in positions to vocalize or silently show and hear the Words of salvation to those near.

He puts together friends from far and close to encourage and help us in our walk with Him. I really thank you all for this post because of the hope.
This precious hope raises the Spirit of God in my life and I thank you for it.

Audrey you keep me so grounded.
Bill, there is so much Godly wisdom in your posts recently. Your ministry has taken off, my brother, and Praise the Lord for this.
Ariel, hear these precious people who Love God with all their hearts. They bear the pain of the world and the burden of Love to others. They speak the truth of the Word of God.
Telling what you know isn't always witnessing. Being who you are in Christ is the witness and it attracts all those who want to enter in.
When losing my own son, I found other peoples children that needed God's new creature.
Bill puts it so much better....
Joanne, thank you for the posting itself.

With Love in Jesus to you all.

If I have offended someone unknowingly, and I find out about it, I immediately and as conveniently possible go to that person and request their forgiveness. I apologize.

I tell young men, "You need to learn three things to have a happy marriage: it's my fault; I'm sorry; and will you forgive me?" It's not a question of who is right or who is wrong.(And NEVER forget her birthday, your anniversary, or any other important day. Also, love knows no bounds when you guys take her some flowers without having to be reminded.)

It's kinda the same thing with our Lord. Goof up; admit the sin or wrong; ask forgiveness; and then go on and forget it. If our Lord can put it away, why can't we? We also need to talk to him as we do our spouse. We need to read and study His Word daily, not just when we "feel like it." Jesus needs to feel our love too.

I was called today and requested back to prison. I was as excited as a school kid on his first day. No one came forward last week. We may go weeks before a tough and hardened heart is opened. But in my heart, I know the Holy Ghost will open those hearts. Those men come because they want to be in chapel, not because they have to be there. That's a big step.

Everyone on here who knows Christ as their Savior does so much, and has blessed me so much over the past couple of years. I pray this ministry--and you all know it is, whether you realize it or not--will continue and grow. It keeps me on my biblical toes! (And drives me biblically nuts sometimes, too!)

With Christ's Love,
bill

Last Edited on Nov 7, 2009 4:47 PM

I would not want to put that theory to the test myself..Stay with Jesus and you know your safe. But I don't care...If you want to think the ones who left God are still saved that is your issue not mine.

Jesus Bless,
Chucky <*))><

Last Edited on Nov 8, 2009 2:43 PM

Some believe Scripture about OSAS, Chuck. Some haven't experienced being brought back from the darkness and knowing where it is safe.
We have some young and Studying to be Christians reading this forum. They could use assurance that is found in the Bible. Because you can't find it doesn't mean it isn't there, right?

Maybe it's just me but some here have backslid and God brought them home, but if you want to give yourself the glory then go ahead.

You are living proof of God's love as we all are.

WLIJ

I told you I do read both sides in the Bible, so either one could be right...I am just saying as long as we live for Jesus and He is in us and we in Him, we are safe for sure, but it is when you get away from Jesus that you have to put either theory to the test..That is when you hope your OSAS theory is right.
To be safe and sure stay with Jesus..The only one it makes any difference to is the one who gets away, and that is his or her problem not mine or yours...right?

I still think this is one topic we should stay away from...there are as many on one side as there are on the other side....This is primary a Baptist belief that has spread into other denominations. It only causes hard feelings when talked about, because of the strong beliefs of both sides.

I am telling you the truth when I say I read both sides in the Bible....I could make a point for either side.
That is why I take no stand in the debate. Either one could be right. There are as many pros as there are cons, and as many verses to prove OSAS wrong as there are to prove it right.

Thank you laura for welcoming me back...LOL

Laura the question is not in the Backsliding...anyone can backslide...the big unknown is if you died while being backsliden would you go to Hell????
Are you always saved and can not do anything to lose your salvation, and stay backslidden and still go to Heaven, or is there a point at which you would lose your salvation. That is the big question...
You believe you can not...
Some believe you will lose your salvation at some point.
I can read verses in the Bible for both...that is why I do not have a side.
I would have to say if put on the spot that I think you could lose your salvation...but then the other verses would come into my head that says you can't....
I say take your pick...which ever you want..it is your soul not mine.

Jesus Bless,
Chucky <*))><

Last Edited on Nov 8, 2009 5:27 PM

Joanne

Response:
In Romans 2, Paul is describing two groups of people: those who are redeemed and those who are not. The unredeemed are those who merely listen to the law. They are like those who audit a college course listening to the teacher but taking no tests and receiving no grade. They may think they are Christians because they do all the “right” things but they are deluding themselves as James 1:23-24 tells us. Those who obey the law are the redeemed. They have come to God in true repentance and faith, realizing that it is impossible for them to keep His law apart from Him. The works or obedience to the law, is the outward result of their faith.

So again it boils down to the true condition of one’s heart. Just what is involved in true salvation.

Ariel:
How does that fit in with not losing salvation? Now also Joanne just for the record as I have said prior to this I actually saw my son in eternal hell fire. I know for a fact that he accepted Christ when he was 14 and was baptized. So how does this play into what you are saying? I don't believe the LORD would have shown me that if it were not true. And because I have had this vision this is why I do not accept OSAS.

Response:
Question - how do you know the dream/vision was from God? Can you prove it?

This is from another post I did awhile back:

True Salvation

“It may surprise you to learn that Scripture never once exhorts sinners to ‘accept Christ.’ The familiar twenty-first-century evangelistic appeal in all its variations (make a decision for Christ, ask Jesus into your heart, try Jesus, accept Jesus Christ as you personal Saviour) violates both the spirit and the terminology of the biblical summon to unbelievers.

The gospel invitation is not an entreaty for sinners to allow the Saviour into their lives. It is both an appeal and a command for them to repent and follow Him. It demands not just passive acceptance of Christ but active submission to Him as well. Those unwilling to surrender to Christ cannot recruit Him to be part of a crowded life. He will not respond to the beckoning of a heart that cherishes sin. He will not enter into partnership with one who loves to fulfill the passions of the flesh. He will not heed the plea of a rebel who simply wants Him to enter and by His presence sanctify a life of continued disobedience.”
(Dr. John MacArthur, The Gospel according to Jesus, Pg. 116)

While there are many verses in Scripture that tell how one is saved, the following are just a representation of all that are out there. I have capitalized, the words that show the active role each individual must take.

John 3:16: “for God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have everlasting life”

Acts 16:31 - “they replied, BELIEVE in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved”

Acts 2:21 - “and everyone who CALLS ON THE NAME of the Lord will be saved”

Acts 2:28 - “REPENTand be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins”

Acts 3:19 - “REPENT then and TURN TO GOD so that your sins may be wiped out that times of refreshing may come from the Lord
Romans 10:9 - “That if you CONFESS WITH YOUR MOUTH JESUS IS LORD, and BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART GOD RAISED
HIM FROM THE DEAD from the dead, you will be saved.”
1 John 1:9 - “If we CONFESS our sins He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

Revelation 3:20 - “Here I am. I stand at the door and knock. If anyone HEARS MY VOICE AND OPENS THE DOOR, I will come in and ear with him and he with Me.

John 5:40 - you are unwilling to COME to Me, that you may have life”

By putting these key words in order we have a picture of what is entailed in salvation.

1. Hears my voice - voice is the Spirit speaking through the Word; one needs to know what the Word says about being redeemed to be saved.

Romans 10:13-17 - "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach except they be sent? As it is written, how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things...so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

2. Confess our sins - “confession” - this is acknowledging one’s sin, to say the same, not to deny; to admit or declare one’s self guilty of what he is accused; to agree with God that I am a sinner.

3. Repent - “repentance” is a change of mind; in a theological sense it is a fundamental and thorough change in the hearts of men from sin and toward God and contains elements of genuine sorrow toward God on account of sin; an inward repugnance to sin necessarily followed by the actual forsaking of it.

2 Cor. 7:9, 10 - “Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing.”

This type of repentance is not the fear of consequences or penalty of sin. If it goes no farther than this it is simply remorse and must end in despair. Also, it is not the recognition of the baseness of sin giving a burden from which man may seek to free himself in vain.

4. Believe in Him - to believe in everything that Jesus stands for & why He came; a necessary part is that God raised Him from the dead. No other religion has its main character and Saviour dying and then rising from the dead. ie - Mohamed died and remains in the grave. The fact that Jesus rose, shows that He conquered sin forever. If He had stayed in the grave death would have had victory over Him but His resurrection proved His victory over death. Remember death, both physical and spiritual, is the result of Adam’s sin. (Roman’s 5:12)

5. Confess Jesus is Lord - a profession implying the yielding or change of one’s conviction; acknowledging Christ as being in control of one’s life
Lord -
a) a term of respect;
b) denotes ownership; can refer to God being the creator and governor of the earth
In this case
c) if one is owned then that person is a slave and the owner/Lord has complete control.

Pre-salvation one is a slave to sin. He has no choice because all are born in sin. These days “slave” is a politically incorrect term to use because of the commitment to freedom and personal fulfillment and the craving for personal autonomy - “if it feels good do it.” Even the church has reduced saving faith and Christian discipleship to a “personal relationships with Jesus” or a “connection with God.” But Scripture tells us that we need to “confess Jesus as Lord.”

If you consider Jesus’ evangelistic style, He did everything possible to discourage people who came because of the miracles and free food. And He told them there was a cost to following Him. People needed to deny themselves and be ready to obey and even die for Him.

6. Turn to, call on, come to, opens the door, believes - an action on part of the one under conviction; the final step
7. Baptism - an outward evidence of an inward change -nowhere in Scripture does it say be baptized to be saved; baptism always follows belief; it is an outward act showing an inward change; the first step of obedience to Christ - if one cannot obey Christ in this simple command, then how will they be able to obey Him in more difficult things?

When Jesus called people to be His followers, He was not searching for a bunch of “buddies” or admirers.” He was calling people to Him: calling them to recognize their fallen state, turn away from their sin and become His followers, making Him Lord of their lives. This is what true salvation is. Anything less undermines faith at its core.

Growing in Him - Joanne

Having said all that, I am a baby Christian and have only been reading the Bible for 6 years so I have a long way to go. I have thankfully been corrected occasionally on this forum, and rightly so. Praise the LORD there are people here that will do that.

I still ascribe to the OSAS doctrine, and an secure that I will see His face one day. Praise the LORD!

Ariel, I can see where you have suffered and continue to suffer for your son. You also seem to be under attack from Satan. You must indeed be a threat to his plans, and that tells me that you are on the right track.

Heavenly Father, our brother Ariel is suffering the slings and arrows of satan. His suffering is palpable. LORD, be pleased to come to the aid of our dear brother, and guide him with Your Wisdom and Your Grace. bring his son safely back to him and to You, O LORD. Build a hedge around our brother so that the demons surrounding him will leave him in Your perfect peace. I ask this in Jesus' Name, Amen

Come quickly, LORD Jesus!

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Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

Last Edited on Nov 9, 2009 8:47 AM

It comes down to 2 very extreme examples that bother me. One is Judas Iscariot, and the other is Lucifer. Lucifer was created by God and was the number one cherub. Yet he was cast away. God created him but did God not know there was iniquity in his heart at creation? I don't think so. So did God create Lucifer with iniquity and hope for the best? Or do the Angels have to make a choice as we do? It doesn't say but that raises a question.

Judas was a chosen apostle and he fell away. At some point did Judas actually accept God or was it all a scam? If he did accept God then most believe that Judas committed the ultimate sin and most believe he never made it to heaven so what then happens to OSAS.

Once saved always saved has to be really scrutinized. And this as I call it convenient loop-hole is that the person was never truly regenerated, never truly accepted Christ. It is a concept that I do not ascribe to. Works for salvation isn't a working theory either, and as I have said several times on this forum grace by faith is the answer but it is God's grace to be given out as He sees fit. We cannot and should not take for granted that we are saved. The final tally will come from HaShem not from Apostle Paul's writings. As I have said before there are many things that Paul said that we do not know the context of them.

For instance Paul's chastizement of Peter. Was that because he (Peter) was afraid of being chastened by the Jewish believers that had come that day or was it because Peter wanted to be with other Jews and enjoy fellowship? Peter was still Kosher and He did not enjoy eating many foods that were not Kosher the same with Paul. Even though he sat and enjoyed being around the Gentiles does not mean he gave up being Kosher.

Many questions are not plainly answered in the text. We simply assume it to be a certain way when it could be something different.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

Last Edited on Nov 9, 2009 11:43 AM

He knew my weaknesses and slapped me across the cocky mouth. I began writing for the Lord weeks after coming into a relationship with Him. Sure, I was a baby in Christ, but the Lord didn't think so, and he guided me all the way.

I had commented about a young evangelist who had backslid, and I was pretty upset about Jimmy Swaggart. I told my religously cocky self, "I'll never do that."

All I can say, dear brothers and sisters: be careful, very careful. It was the absolute, absolute worst year of my life! My ex-wife told me something I already knew: I was worse than I ever was before coming to Christ. As Pharoah cursed himself and his people, so did I--me and my family. I paid dearly, very dear for being so religiously cocky.

Backsliding is a terrible, terrible feeling and thing to do. I can't explain how ugly and dirty you feel. In your heart you know the Holy Spirit has been taken from you. There is no commune with Jesus. You are left to Satan's care! (Ahhhhh!)

If you've known the Lord 6 years you're not still on baby food, dear. You either, JF.

In the Lord,
bill

Last sunday? Went rather well if this is what you meant, felt touched in a special way, why? Have you been praying for somthin' special dear brother in Jesus?

: )

Lucifer's problem, as recorded in Isaiah 14, was pride. It got him thrown out of God's presence because he was unwilling to repent of it. Intead he said (vs.13,14)- "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God, I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north, I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High".

He was full of himself. All those "I's" are in the center of the word S"I"N. Whenever we put ourselves in the center of our lives instaed of God we always set ourselves up for a fall. I think that is why Jesus taught so strongly, by example in His own earthly life, on the importance of humility. "Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall" (Proverbs 16:18).

Judas' problem was also a form of pride. He was unwilling to go to Jesus and admit he messed up big time. Had he done so I beleive he would have been forgiven by Jesus. It wouldn't have changed the outcome of Jesus going to the cross. That had to happen according to God's plan. But Judas didn't humbly go to Jesus to seek His forgiveness. Instead, he was consumed by his sin and chose to take his own life.

Jesus said any sin can be forgiven except one, the unpardonable sin. Many Christians worry that they may have committed that sin. The mere fact that they are concerned about it means thay haven't committed it. Jesus defines it as blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Luke 12:10).

What is blaspheming the Holy Spirit? At it's core, it is simply refusing to accept Him & His free gift of salvation & forgiveness. Without His indwelling Spirit there is no salvation or forgiveness. This, too, is a problem of pride. To think we can make it on our own merits is PRIDE...and it blasphemes the work of the Holy Spirit. It's the one thing God can't do anything about.

As you say, JF, none of us should take our salvation for granted. But, I for one, know that my salvation is a done deal. That's why every day I thank God for saving me though I don't deserve it, I thank God for loving me despite my imperfect flesh that still falls down, I thank God for revealing at least a glimpse of my eternal identity in Christ, and I thank God for giving me so much to sustain me now...and so much to look forward to in eternity.

Peace in Christ

Tyler

In the circle of faith
FRankV

Bill, because I am all too aware how easy it is to slip, every day I pray that the LORD will keep me "under the shadow of His Wings" and I ask Him not to let me even peak outside! Maybe I am no longer a baby Christian, after all, but when I read the excellent postings here, I feel like one. Still it encourages me that I understand things now that would have baffled me not so long ago. But I take your point, dear brother, with love, and will heed the warning!! Thank you.

Heavenly Father, I thank you for my bropthers and sisters here. I pray that You will continue to bless this forum and those that share their knowledge of Your Word and their love for You. Help us to be discerning, and loving. Give us wisdom, and keep us on the straight and narrow path that leads to You. Amen
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Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

Last Edited on Nov 10, 2009 6:37 AM

I disagree with your definition of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Here is a definition that I got off the web which makes much more sense than the one you have given.

The word "blasphemy" is a term that speaks of damnable heresy, not misjudgment. Many, because of poor teaching, misjudge others— that's forgivable. The Pharisees, on the other hand, went beyond judging to trying to keep others from following Christ. Blasphemy against the Spirit is the absolute, permanent, hateful rejection of the gifts of the Holy Spirit with the motive to keep others from fully following Christ as well as to keep one's position of power. A person who has committed this sin has no desire for repentance, will divide the body of Christ, judge the salvation of others, and will ultimately die in this state.

Here is Webster's Dictionary 1913 edition's definition;
The public domain 1913 Webster's Unabridged Dictionary defines blasphemy as:

Blasphemy (Blas"phe*my) n. [L. blasphemia, Gr. : cf. OF. blasphemie.]
An indignity offered to God in words, writing, or signs; impiously irreverent words or signs addressed to, or used in reference to, God; speaking evil of God; also, the act of claiming the attributes or prerogatives of deity. When used generally in statutes or at common law, blasphemy is the use of irreverent words or signs in reference to the Supreme Being in such a way as to produce scandal or provoke violence.
Figuratively, of things held in high honor: Calumny; abuse; vilification.

So what you're saying is simply rejecting Christ, but that is not it at all it is rejecting the work of the Holy Spirit and giving the credit to evil or someone else.

Based on that then we come back to once saved always saved and Lucifer and Judas. They didn't reject the action of the Holy Spirit they as you stated allowed pride and greed to over whelm them. In that case where does this fit into once saved always saved?
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

As for Satan, because He actually stood before God, his rebellion was his eternal downfall. He didn't need faith in God, because he stood before His Throne and had visual proof. I think that angels also must choose whether to follow God or not.

Again, this is just my opinion, and I look forward to comments (gently, please!!).

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Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

Last Edited on Nov 10, 2009 9:51 AM

I believe you to be right about the angels needing to accept God or not. If that is the case then Lucifer would have had to make a choice. If he refused to follow God then that would explain his rejection, and his fall from grace.

Judas however is a different case. Unless God chose him because He knew that Judas would betray Jesus and that would be the final trigger to the crucifixion. Hard to say because we don't have all of the facts.

At any rate I think we all agree that we are saved strictly by God's grace. The only dispute is if it is a one time deal or whether we need to keep making the choice to follow God. I just don't believe that we are totally secure for eternity as many believe, but that is my own opinion. I still have to work out what you say, but I truly believe that Holy Spirit is impressing me with something different. But what do I know.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

The same arguement could be made about Lucifer. He was not committed to God, he was committed to himself. And that led to his downfall.

As far as the definition of blasphemy, well I'll just stick with what Jesus said about it. His word is good enough for me. He said ANY sin can be forgiven except one. It could ONLY be what I have already said it is. I have heard numerous teachings on this. To say it's something else is simply inconsistent with Jesus' own words about it.

Tyler

Last Edited on Nov 10, 2009 10:57 AM

That is my point exactly. How do we know? You have a created being Lucifer, was he created with iniquity in his heart? Did he have a choice to accept God or not?

Same with Judas. My thoughts are this and once again correct me if I am wrong, but many people believe that they are saved because they said the sinner's prayer. They bare no fruit of the spirit. They go around cussing and tail bearing, coveting you name it yet you talk to them they are saved because their pastor has told them they are.

Believe me or not but the Holy Spirit has been showing me my old fellowship and the people that are the elders. The Holy Spirit has shown me they are on the broad path to destruction, and that they are "lukewarm" Christians. They however believe that they are the greatest thing since flush toilets and canned beer. My inclination and feeling is that these souls are on their way to perishing, but to talk to them they are on their way to heaven and they will be seated in the front row right before God Almighty.

You see brother I believe that this is the definition that Jesus gave when talking to the Pharisees--
Blasphemy against the Spirit is the absolute, permanent, hateful rejection of the gifts of the Holy Spirit with the motive to keep others from fully following Christ as well as to keep one's position of power. A person who has committed this sin has no desire for repentance, will divide the body of Christ, judge the salvation of others, and will ultimately die in this state.

Based on that definition it has nothing with rejecting Jesus, what it has to deal with is the rejecting of the work of the Holy Spirit. And definitely the Pharisees wanted to retain their power base so they were willing to go to whatever lengths were necessary to keep that power. They would have only lost that base by more and more people follwing Christ and ultimately the Holy Spirit.

Do you see that brother?
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

Last Edited on Nov 10, 2009 12:14 PM

People accept Jesus as Savior, then after a few years fall away from Him(backslide, lose interest, go into the world, whatever, you name one)

Now It is GREAT to think:" Well, I am sure glad that person was saved, or he woulld be going to Hell".

If the guy or gal dies without coming back to Christ it is even easier to say..."Well! He or She was probably not saved in the first place",and the Lord took them".
THAT IS THE EXCUSE GIVEN...Maybe not Excuse, but reason for them dying.

THE ONE THING THAT IS TRUE, AND I HAVE BEEN REPEATING THIS FOR A LONG TIME...
It only matters to the one who gets away from the Lord!

If you JF, or Me get away from Jesus we are the ones who are taking the chance with our eternal souls...no one else but you and me.
If I would get away from Jesus and some night be sitting on a Bar stoll in some bar drinking a beer...the last thing I would think of or even say would be...Boy I'm sure glad Im saved.
Got Me?...Do you hear me, and what I am saying? How idiotic this sounds.

As long as we stay in Jesus and keep Jesus first in our lives...We are SECURE in Jesus.
If we get away...We are taking an awful risk...

Like I say I tend to think you can lose your salvation, but I can read OSAS in the scripture, but even though I think you can lose, I do not sit around ever hour and worry about losing it as some OSAS people tend to think....I enjoy my Salvation, and want to spread the Word of God just like they do.

I don't care which way you believe...Enjoy Jesus...He gave His life for you on that Cross.

I hope the OSAS people are right...Then You JF and I are SECURE in Jesus.

Jesus Bless,
Chucky <*))><

Jesus found me in the pit. Much older person now. He rescued me. I followed Him. I submitted to His will and not my own. Nothing I could do would have measured up to what the Lord was doing in my life.

So, why didn't all the backsliders (including me) here die while still backsliders? Remember Bill's witness about the hunting trip? Why didn't Bill die on that trip to the woods that day? Was it in Bills hands? Did Bill not mention someone watching over him?

To all who read this. Do you not remember some very close calls like driving drunk or being in accidents you could have lost your life in, but didn't? Could Someone have been watching over you?
Dr. l thinks all good things are just a coincidence.
Is this what you believe, Chuck?
Why are any of us alive today? Hello!

I believe that anyone who thinks that they are on the straight and narrow path because of anything they do in the flesh is garbage. The Spirit in you, the Comforter in you is teaching you even against your fleshly will.
The Spirit groans....why? Would this mean you might or ARE sealed!

In proverbs there is a phrase that states that so you think....so it will be.

If we give the wrong picture of our Lord and Savior to any that read what we write, well, that's in Matthew and you, Chuck, and Jf can find it. I believe that Christians are sometimes called children and God loves his children no matter what age of Christianity they are at and if any take away His power, His promises or His glory they are in error. And, backsliding would be the least of their worries.

John 6:29 Your WORK is to believe...

WLIJ
His Grace plus Your faith puts you in heaven. Your faith just has to be as big as a mustard seed.

But let's get on the same page on a major point. Jesus IS the Holy Spirit, isn't he? It appears that you're seperating them. At least that's what I see from what you're saying. Or do we not agree that Father, Son & Spirit are One?

Tyler

I have given examples, and verses, but you all tell me I either take it out of context, or I am not understanding it right, or God is hanging on to me, and not me hanging on to God...by the way I need Jesus more than He needs me, so I will hang on even if He is hanging on to me. I am not worrying about losing my salvation,and I enjoy my salvation and am happy in Jesus....I believe I am right, but I will not take anything away or put down some one if they believe in OSAS if that is what they read...ok with me, but when I am asked if you can lose your salvation I will always say:"I think you can, but there are people who think you can't...Read it yourself and make up your own mind, It is your soul that is riding on your choice".

I still think this subject should be dropped and not brought back up, because you will not change my mind and I will not change yours, and down through the years I have only seen hard feelings come out of discussing this subject. People just seem to get upset on this subject. Probably because they are not sure themselves that they are saved forever...and when someone tells them that have to stay in Jesus to remain saved, and that you just can't leave him and start running around in the world they get offended and upset...It destroys the secure feeling they have about being able to get away from Jesus and still be saved, or if loved one's get away from God it's nice to think they are still saved. Well, You can't. I know I could lose my salvation if I got so far away from Jesus into the world, but I still feel secure in Jesus...why wouldn't I? I would only have to worry if I got away from Jesus and started sinning, and what is wrong with that? Maybe I should worry a little if I start getting away from God...Don 't you think????

Jesus Bless,
Chucky <*))><

Last Edited on Nov 10, 2009 5:08 PM