The doctrine of eternal security, that is, that once one becomes a true believer in Christ, he cannot lose his salvation, is another that causes much controversy in the church. When we look, however, at God’s eternal purpose, that of building a church to be given as a bride to Christ, we can see how this concepts perfectly fits the picture.

In a previous study we have seen:
1. God had a plan formulated before time began, whereby a redeemed humanity would become the bride of Christ, to praise and serve Him in heaven forever
2. After salvation comes a person’s sanctification, that is, the work of the Holy Spirit to conform believers to the image of Christ; we can call it spiritual growth
3. When those believers die, they are taken to heaven and glorified to become part of the bride of Christ. They then fulfil their purpose of serving and praising the Bridegroom as stated in point 1.

When we consider the scope of God’s plan we can see that there is no room for one that is saved, to be lost.

Part 1
To understand the true meaning of this topic, we first need to look at the nature of God. Let’s consider three qualities that are agreed upon by all evangelicals. Each one is inseparably related to the other two - if one is not true then neither are the others.

a. The absolute sovereignty of God - The sovereignty of God means that God is supreme and He alone has absolute power over everyone and everything. His word is law and His decisions are final. He can do as He chooses and no one can question His justice. If God were not sovereign then that would mean that someone would be either above Him or His equal, yet
Deuteronomy 4:35 tells us “…the Lord, He is God, there is none else beside Him.”

If God were not sovereign then we could not trust Him, as we could never be sure that He could keep His word to us.
Isaiah 12:2 - “Behold, God is my salvation… He also is become my salvation”
Psalm 37:39a - “But the salvation of the righteous is of the Lord”
Salvation is God’s work from beginning to end and because it is His work and He is in total control, His work can never fail, it will stand forever. The sovereignty of God is the absolute assurance of our security - it depends on His faithfulness, not our own.
If we are unfaithful, He will chasten, correct and judge, but He will never abandon us.

b. The omniscience of God - God’s omniscience refers to the fact that He is all wise, He knows all things from beginning to end.
1 John 3:20b “…God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.”
If God were not omniscient then He could not be a trustworthy Saviour as how could He plan the future if something could just pop up and upset His plans. Another thought concerns what Jesus says in John 15:16a “You have not chosen Me but I have chosen you…” and 15:19 - “I chose you out of the world”
If one could “fall from grace” after they were saved and be ultimately lost, then why would He choose that person in the first place?

c. The immutability of God - This simply means that God never changes His mind -
James 1:17b “…and comes down from the Father of Lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning
God had made promises to Israel on the basis of His covenant with Abraham. Many times Israel was disobedient and rebellious and God punished them, but He never changed His mind and abandoned them. God knew beforehand how unfaithful Israel would be, but He still made the covenant and never broke it.
Malachi 3:6 “…I am the Lord, I change not; therefore you sons of Jacob are not consumed.” What better assurance should the believer need of his security?

To sum up these three attributes of God with respect to “eternal security”,
1. If God is sovereign, the believer is secure, for he is in the care of a supreme Saviour who has absolute power.
2. If God is omniscient, the believer is secure, for God knew all about man’s failure and weakness before He ever saved him and did it anyway.
3. If God is immutable, the believer is secure, because He who said “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” (John 10:28) will never go back on His Word.

Part 2
Let us also consider:

a. Because of Christ’s finished work on the cross a believer receives eternal/everlasting life. John 3:15 - 16 “…that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life…that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” This is God’s promise and there are no conditions.
Note: “should not perish” and “have” everlasting/eternal life.
We believe, God saves - there is no other condition.

b. 2 Corinthians 5:17 - “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, old things have passed away; behold all things have become new”
One who is born again, becomes new and participates in the divine nature of Christ and this nature will be completed in heaven.

This thought comes out in Philippians 1:6 - “=Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.”
“being confident…will complete it” - there is no condition here, Paul was confident that what was started in believers at the time of their new birth would be finished.

c. Romans 8: 38-39 “For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Nothing can separate us from God’s love - nothing.

d. John 10: 27-29: “My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.”
The security of the believer rests with Jesus as the Good Shepherd. It is His job to protect His sheep and keep them safe. If He didn't carry out His responsibilities what kind of a shepherd would He be much less a good shepherd. Note: The Father also stands behind the security of the sheep, because no one can steal from God, it’s that plain and simple. “They shall never perish” is God’s promise to believers.

e. Isaiah 40 is a favourite chapter of mine because it talks about how big is God.
Vs. 12- “who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, measured heaven with a span and calculated the dust of the earth in a measure?”
The implied answer is “no one.” No one can do it, only God. In verse 12 it talks about God’s hand. Now it says that God’s hand is big enough to hold all the earth’s waters and possibly all the water in the universe is included in this, in the hollow of His hand.

A “span” is the distance of one’s outstretched hand from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the pinkie. Note that in the span of God’s hand is all of heaven. According to Strong’s Concordance, “heaven” in this case refers to where the clouds move as well as to where the celestial bodies revolve. Therefore God’s hand is big enough to hold the whole universe. The individual would be smaller than a speck of dust in something of this size. How could anyone jump out of a hand that big?

f. Believers become part of the body of Christ
1Corinthians 6:15 “do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?”
Ephesians 1:22-23 - Christ “is head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all”
Romans 12:5 - “we, who are many are one body in Christ.”

When the new preacher heard a dear old saint say “I am safe, for no man can pluck me out of my Father’s hand,” he replied, “Yes, but Grandma, you might slip out between the fingers.” Her reply was sound, “Oh no,” said she, “you see, I am one of the fingers, for we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.”

g. 1 Timothy 1:12b “nevertheless, I am not ashamed, for I know in whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.”
“know” - knowing with certainty
“have believed” - refers to something that began in the past and has continuing results, the object of his belief is God
“am persuaded” - totally convinced
“He is able” - He has more than sufficient power
“to keep that which I have committed” - myself
“that day” - when believers stand before the judgement seat of God; this is not a judgement for salvation but more of a rewarding or not for deeds done since salvation.
Rom. 14:10b - “for we shall all stand before the judgement seat of Christ”
1 Cor. 3:13 - “each one’s work will become clear, for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.”

2 Cor. 5:10 - “for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.”
Paul had been through enough temptation, hardship, and tests to be able to put his absolute security in the One who had shown His power to him time and time again. He had seen the Lord save and heal and protect and guide, etc. and he had no doubt whatsoever, that God was able to keep him secure despite his own failings as a person.
This isn’t a false sense of security, but a comforting sense of security. Why? Because now I can get on with what He has for me to do without worrying whether I measure up to the mark or not.

h. 2 Timothy 1:7 - “For God has not given us the spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.”
If I have to trust in myself to keep myself in Christ, then I will never have any peace about it because I know myself and I just can’t do it! I will never have any power to be used effectively by Him because I will always be worrying if what I am doing is enough to keep myself in His hand. It would make the keeping of my salvation dependant on me and that’s a scary thought! In my opinion, going this route would not be conducive to having power, love and a sound mind.

Conclusion:
* Scripture teaches that the death of Christ was an actual atonement, an actual sanctification, not a potential one.
* Scripture teaches that the sinner for whom Christ died has received by grace alone, the gift of a true and real payment for all his sins, fully borne by Christ.
* Christ’s substitutionary sacrifice was the divine work of the Trinity to accomplish redemption, not merely to make it possible to procure salvation, not merely to make it optional.
* Jesus Christ, according to Scripture actually bore the penalty for all the sins of all whom
* The Father draws and all whom He draws will come and all who come Christ receives and keeps and raises.
* The Lord brings His church through sanctification to eternal glory. Therefore this is all a supernatural work and it will not fall short by one soul.

Part 3
The Seal of the Holy Spirit - Our Guarantee

Ephesians 1:12-14
"...that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."

There are many verses that state that the person who is sealed is the person who has accepted Christ as their personal Saviour. What is God’s seal?
Believers do not receive, directly and immediately, the fullness of all of God’s promises, many of which are “reserved in heaven for us” 1 Peter 1:3-4
One of these is the “redemption of our body” Romans 8:23

God has therefore sealed each believer in Him “with the Holy Spirit of promise” Ephesians 1:13.
The Holy Spirit is given to each believer the moment he trusts Christ, as a guarantee of the inheritance he has in Christ:
Ephesians 1:12-14 - “who is the guarantee of our inheritance…”
Each believer is sealed until the “day of redemption" Ephesians 4:20.

In Bible days the seal was an official mark of identification that was placed on a letter or contract or other official document. The seal of hot wax impressed with a signet ring, showed that the document was under the authority of the person to whom the signet belonged.

The sealing of the believer secures him with God’s own seal, that in effect states, “this person belongs to Me and is a member of My own family and is given authority to preach, teach and defend God’s Word. The seal of the Holy Spirit is a guarantee or pledge which in the long run will be "to the praise of His glory."

Growing in Him - Joanne

Last Edited on 25-Oct-2009 5:15 PM

April

Believe me when I say I grasp everything you are saying. I really appreciate all the trouble you have and the others have gone to in order to prove your point. However, if we turn from Christ then are you saying we are still saved?
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

JF

You don't have to believe God's Word, still your free will choice....

Jf, it's not for sale.

It's a free gift. :):):)

with Love in Jesus

That's not a born again Christian!

I'll use myself as an example. Went to church all my life, but I loved the world too much. Liked a wiskey once in a while. Beer with pizza, had a horrible temper, and I could cuss you out with the best of sailors. You add hypocrisy to that list and I was pretty lost.

Then along comes the Holy Spririt and convicts me. He started a few years before "the big day." I was asked four years prior point blank: "Bill, you go to church, but do you really know Christ as your Savior?"

I can take hypocricy just so far. I couldn't answer the guy. I got angry (Recognize the response?). I didn't cuss him. I just didn't say anything. I didn't have to. The man knew, too.

On Nov. 28, 1978 Billy Graham pointed that long finger of his and said, "That's you!" I went to my bedside and asked Christ into my life. My life has never been the same since.

My walk has swayed, but never broke. I did the prodical son thing once, too, and found the Lord does not abandon us, and he does not tolerate our foolishness. He was there all the time. I was the guy going down the wrong road. I let the world in again. YUK!

I feel folks like the first ones I mentioned are like the seeds cast upon the stones Jesus referred to. Christ said in Mark 7:6: "...Well hasth Esaias prophesised of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.'"

Too many people give Christ lip service and not heart and self service. Without judgemental opinion, I feel some people who say or think they are saved are not. They just give Jesus lip service.

The truly born again person will desire to read the Word; go to worship Him with fellow believers; and, despite falling down from time to time, serve Him with all their heart and soul. We may differ in our interpretation at times, but we all have the same goal.

The seeds cast upon the stones don't last long. And those cast among the weeds, so to speak, just fool themselves. I guess some will not know until the day the face the Lord. But down here we know them by their fruit.

bill

Last Edited on 26-Oct-2009 1:50 PM

Now this is what I am talking about is what Bill has said. "Back-sliders," those that have deliberately I hate to say turned their back on God, but they have deliberately turned to sin. Fornication, adultery, as Bill put it worldly living. My last fellowship condoned all of these young people living together and having children out of wedlock. Even several of the adults were living together without the benefit of marriage. Divorce was rampant in the congregation, some were having affairs all being condoned and coming under the umbrella of once saved always saved.

One young lady had one child and was living with the father (in her parent's house) and was pregnant with the second child. When I said something to the pastor about them living and sleeping together if that was not a sinful relationship? His comment to me was and I quote, "They repented once, therefore they are covered once and for all." You see that to me unless the second pregnancy was of divine origin less than an appropiate answer for a "man of God" to give.

Now what most of you are saying finally especially what brother Bill is saying I agree with. That was my point in this whole ordeal. Back-sliding, wanton sinning and basically just as I said sticking your finger in God's eye is something I couldn't understand. See the way my former pastor put once saved always saved sounded just like the way you put it here, and that scared me. But now with Bill's explanation I feel relieved that we are on the same page.

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

The story, at least to me, is more about the true character of the Father than about the wayward son. If God is really like the Father in the story then how could we ever doubt our salvation? Even though the son went his own way & squandered his inheritance, his Father joyously received him back.

Thoughts? Comments?

Tyler

This letter is not for everyone, it is only intended for those who believe they know Jesus Christ. The Bible is clear, going to church or being a good person, does not secure you a reservation in Heaven. Nor does speaking a sinners prayer and thinking you are eternally saved.
It is written ” Examine yourself to see if you are in the Faith”. Why is it so important to examine yourself? God says, at judgment time many will say to Him “didn’t I have fellowship with you? “ And He will answer “ away from me evildoers”.

Whoever says they know Christ but fail to keep his commandments is a liar. How do you know you are saved, how do you know your Faith is genuine? Are you faithfully obeying or walking in darkness? If God says something is darkness or sin and you willingly walk in it again and again, you are holding onto God with one hand and the world with the other. Friendship with the world in enmity with God.

Though never perfect, those who are born again must have an ever increasing pattern of obedience to avoid sin. It’s like this...if your Faith hasn’t changed you, it probably hasn’t saved you. I wouldn’t risk my eternal soul in a false relationship with Jesus Christ. Get to know Jesus personally before it’s too late and once you have passed on, your choice has been made.
We are all sinners saved by Grace, but through the power of His spirit we press forward.

How is your walk with God?

______________________________________________________________
It’s like this...if your Faith hasn’t changed you, it probably hasn’t saved you.
.

Last Edited on 28-Oct-2009 9:29 AM

As Jonzy said and as Rick said we have a new beginning with the Podigal son. When he returned home after realizing what a fool he had been he admitted his sin and repented of it.

This is the point here. If you "fall away" or "back-slide" then you come back to the Father, He will accept you but you must go through the process all over again of admitting your sins and ask forgiveness and then repent. Poppa will allow you to come back but you must be truly repentant.

Besides as Rick put it, many times people accept Christ on the spur of the moment to save their behinds from problem (such as in the parable of the sower where the seed fell on the thorns or rocky soil) then when the trial has passed then they go back to what they were doing before. (I did that myself for years. I would pray and God would save my bacon and then I would turn around and go back to being a heathen. But now here I am covered in the blood and I really weep for those fools to foolish or prideful to accept Him.) Does that speak of someone who was actually saved? No it doesn't.

Poppa will take us back at any time if we confess our sins, ask His forgiveness, receive that forgiveness and turn away from our sins and become "obedient" to Him.

The wonderful thing about our Father is that He is the God of second, third, fourth, or however many chances we need to get it right as long as our hearts are in the right place.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

Last Edited on 28-Oct-2009 5:46 AM

In the prodigal son story, did the son ever cease to a son? I think not. Otherwise he wouldn't have cared about his being astray from his Father & the mess he was in. He realized his need for his Father's provision but considered himself unworthy of it. He was contrite about his going off & messing his life up. And so should we be if we find ourselves in a similar situation.

But what really blows my mind is the Father's love in this story. He saw His son afar off and ran to him, in that culture an undignified thing for him to do. He lavishes love on him a throws a party for him. What a picture of God's unconditional love for us even if we go astray for a time.

But what does the other son do? He gets mad because he thinks he's done all the right things, followed all the rules, never messed up. In fact the text has him saying, referring to his wayward brother, "This son of yours..." as if he's disowned him. I think this is a heads up to any of us who feel the same way. Spiritual pride is the worst kind of pride. We can end up looking down on others. Yet, the Father show love & respect to him as well.

Now, here's a follow-up question to the story for futher discussion. Suppose the prodigal son died while in the midst of his "falling away". Would he have been condemned to hell or received into Heaven?

Thoughts? Comments?

God is patient...God is merciful...But even God has His limits and
God can bring any of us home at any time He chooses.

Don't push your luck sinners !
Repent doesn't mean repent x 150 plus

I think most believers who find themelves up to their necks in some kind of sin pretty much, at some point, know that they are. How they got there is not as important as turning back to God in repentance. And I think that is the main point behind the prodigal story.

However, you seem to be saying there is a limit to God's forgiveness. If that is true, then what about Jesus' teaching about forgiving 70X7 (Matt. 18:22)? I always understood that to mean that the principle of forgiveness is continual, it never ends, we forgive each other of sins against each other, God, in turn, forgives us of our sins when we confess them to Him. At what point, then, does God stop forgiving? Please explain.

Tyler

A true believer is eternally forgiven...yes no doubt...we can't sin too much to be
forgiven or Gods word would not be true. Bible says in the flesh is no good thing, the heart
is full of evil and the tongue is venomous. We will Sin !

I am saying God may...at anytime...take a believer home...when He feels the believer
has served his purpose / will not change his ways / playing the sin-repent game etc
I believe that God can ( at His will ) bring home any believer at anytime. That's all !

that ye may > > > " KNOW " > > > that ye have eternal life................ I John 5:13

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Being confident of this very thing, that > > > " HE " > > > which hath begun a good

work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ....................Philippians I : 6

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I believe if you are truly saved God will not let you go...
He may let you fall - He doesn't walk for us..

Yeah, my Savior was watching over me, but He was letting me waddle in the slop I chose. When [my] world fell to crumbs around [me] and [I] was sitting in the house [I] built and raised my kids in 28 years sold, and I had less than 50 bucks to my name, I called out to the Lord on my face.

Yeah, He came to me. The room filled with a fog and a nail-printed hand reached out and a voice that sounded like a thundering waterfall said, "Rise! Be a man!"

I was brought from a prostrate position to my knees (Try that sometime. I did. Couldn't.) worshipping Him.

The Lord doesn't fool with us. Just like Paul on the Damascus Road, and to Ananias he seemingly said to me: "Get to it and quit wining about your sins. I saw what you did. I forgive you. Now don't do it again and get with my program."

There is a clear difference between getting saved and backsliding and purely playing games with the Savior from the beginning. THAT He does not appreciate.

Look, we sound like the Pharisees who rattled back and forth about the resurrection. It's not up to us who does or does not go to heaven, but it IS up to us to make sure we do.

This is dragging out, but there is a young man in my church who the Holy Ghost put on my heart to pray for for salvation. One day he went to the alter. He has a wife and two kids.

He is tatooed all over and was a heavy drinker. He couldn't get over me praying for him and being concerned for him and his salvation. "Nobody had ever done that for me." I told him the Lord put him on my mind and prayer lips. He was He who is concerned for your soul and well being.

That was a couple years ago. He went trucking. I was a trucker when I backslid and told him to be very, very careful. It's the Devil's playground. Well, he hasn't been to church in several weeks and I told his wife I'd be after him or he'll backslide.

"I think he already has," she said with tears. "Please, go after him. He respects you."

I'm going after this young man and his soul. Pray for him, and for me that the Holy Spirit gives me the words to open his heart back to the Lord. His seed was cast upon thorny ground. I must dig among the thorns and find him. Help me!

Bro. bill

I believe as Rick has said there are limits and I know many people don't want to hear that, but take Acts 17:30 for instance.
Acts 17:30 (New Living Translation)

30 “God overlooked people’s ignorance about these things in earlier times, but now he commands everyone everywhere to repent of their sins and turn to him.

We can say all we want that this only applies to the unsaved but I believe that it applies to all of us because it says EVERYONE not just unsaved, but EVERYONE. The time of providing lip service to God has ended. The time to get on the straight and narrow has come and we had better be mindfull of our own actions and keep ourselves close to the Father. I know that I feel that as Bill has said, it is up to the Father and the Son for we ourselves are not aware of all that we step into each and every day.

The Lord called upon me to put a 10ft. X 6ft. lighted cross out in front of my house that has a big sign on it that says REPENT. I light that every night. I take this repentance very, very seriously and I believe that we all have too,because I don't believe this is all covered as many think.

Deacon I believe if the prodigal had died while he was in his sins, I think he would probably have gone to hell. The Wages of sin is death. Not a slap on the hands, but death. We can all accept the feel good oh God does not have butter fingers line, but it plainly states if you sin you die. I believe that grace only covers the unknown sin, but when we know that we have sinned we need to repent, ask forgiveness, and accept the LORD's forgiveness in faith and continue on our path. But as Rick said we need to be mindful and stay away from all sin as much as possible. Sinning and doing it knowing and repeating day after day is not what repentance is for. As Rick says there will come a time where the Lord will no longer look the other way.

Jesse Duplantis, says I don't have to repent every day because I don't sin every day. I know that I am very watchful of my mouth, my mind and my actions. I try not to sin everyday and somedays I don't step into known sin, but I am sure that I probably do something that I don't realize so I still repent every day and I cry out for mercy, and grace.

You can call me immature, legalistic, unbelieving whatever you want. I still believe that I have been shown that we need to be humble, repentant, confessing our sins known or unknown everyday and asking for His forgiveness. Our hearts must be in the right place all of the time. Call that legalistic if you like but that is where I will be on my knees every time I realize that I have sinned and at least once a day asking forgiveness for the sins I don't realize.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

Last Edited on 29-Oct-2009 6:35 AM

So whether it's murder, adultery or something as minor as absent mindedly stealing a pencil from your employer's office, it's all the same to God. That is why Jesus, in His Sermon On The Mount, kept "raising bar" by saying "You have heard it said...but I say..." in order to show us how far we really come short and how hopeless we are without His grace & mercy.

Rick, thanks for clarifying. Your point is well taken.

Tyler

When I first knew how much God loved David, I wondered how He could. The Bible shows us all of David's sin.

As you said, Jesus raised the bar.

From this side of the Cross I realize it's not a question of how much we do for God but meditating on how much God loves us. John 3:16

I'm not following you Deacon. The size of the sin means absolutely nothing is true, but the intention of sin is something different. For instance, you are aware that Jesus said if you call someone an idiot you run the risk of judgment, agreed? Is it not true then if you call that person anything other than friend you would be running the risk of judgment?

Note Jesus did not say you were going to be judged only that you were running the risk of judgment. If that is a correct statement do you know if you are going to be judged on that one incident or not? You don't, now how many other similar situations do we step into everyday that may end up in judgment that we are not certain we did? See this is where I believe grace comes into play.

Your example of stealing a pencil from work! If you did it unintentionally then that will show up in your heart, and when you return to work you can return the pencil. If you died on the way home from work and you had the pencil in your pocket, God would look at your heart and determine whether you were a thief or not. Do you not trust that God has enough discernment to know your heart, because he doesn't look at us in anyway except through our hearts. In fact that is why we cannot judge our fellow man because we do not see the heart only God and Jesus see the hearts of men and know their true intentions.

When you are sure or when you know that you may be placing yourself in a position of judgment that is when we need to repent and ask for forgiveness. If you say something off-handed and it was totally unintentional, I think God has the ability to dismiss that one (grace). However I don't think we can go around calling people fools or jerks, off-handedly on a regular basis because then you have a problem that needs to be taken before the LORD.

You see Deacon if we don't watch our steps and curb our speach, and act different from the rest of the world then how can we call ourselves God's kids?

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

King David and Abraham two very unlikely candidates for God's hall of fame but both are at the top. God even called them men after His own heart.

Both men loved God completely and without any shame. Both men lied and did whatever but both men were completely obedient to God. I guess my question is even though we think we are good and honest can we compare to these men.

I don't know if I could put my only son on the alter as Abraham did and believe like Abraham did. David's advercary Saul was in a cave and David had the opportunity to end the chase but chose to cut of a piece of fabric rather than Saul's throat. I don't know if I could do that.

They were completely obedient are any of us that obedient? I'm not that is for sure, but God has given me the "grace" I need when I error unintentionally and he has given me the ability to confess my sin of disobedience to Him and ask forgiveness when I sin voluntarily. Hence the different kinds of offerings in Leviticus. One for voluntary sin and one for involuntary sin.

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

Last Edited on 29-Oct-2009 11:34 AM

We have the Holy Spirit in us not sometimes but all the time. He is a person. We can grieve him and more.
I always wondered why as a new Christian I never heard more about the Holy Spirit. He is so important.

wliJ

Some may agree with me on this but most probably won't, but I believe the Ruach HaKodesh (God's Spirit) was given to many but not to all.

I believe it was given to those that God had proven to be trustworthy to Him. For instance all the prophets had to work with the Holy Spirit and certainly those people that really chased after God. David and Abraham and many others who trusted God completely and that God knew He could use faithfully, much like today.

I know the Bible says that every man is given a measure of faith and I believe it was the same before Christ, but it came down to what we do with that faith that makes the Holy Spirit active in our lives.

If all of us have it, not all of us are in tune with it. And some of us definitely quench the spirit (my son does because he doesn't have a conscience that he listens to any more).

Those of us that seek after God to know Him intimately will be greatly influenced by the Spirit, and those who only get into it ankle deep will struggle to find their way. The first shiny object twirled before their eyes will have them off on a rabbit trail looking for eutopia in some new age hyped religious cult.

I can't believe those people that spent $10,000.00 to $15,000.00 to go to a sweat lodge to experience spiritual healing. They could have went to I think it is the Souix Reservation and for $500.00 they could have the same experience and probably been safe with all the old chiefs. No one there ever dies. They could have dropped to their knees and had a Jesus experience for free.

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

However, we do still have to contend with this flesh...and it does act up. The intent of the heart is key. That's why I put it the way I did. I'm glad the Lord knows my heart is toward Him...and that I am hopelessly lost without Him. That's why whenever I'm pouring out my heart before the Lord over sin in my life, whether it is unintentional, deliberate or something I just fell into, I pray for forgiveness & cleansing for ALL my sins, whether I'm aware of them or not.

Let's face it, in the daily warp & woof of life we're all capable of things, in whateverever circumstance we're in, that we never dreamed we might say or do. I'm just being honest here & baring my soul. I'm far from perfect & not afraid to say so. I am TOTALLY dependant on His grace & mercy to get me thru this life & into His loving arms. I know I can't do it on my own. But I also know the Bible make it clear that when I accepted Jesus as my Savior I passed out of judgement & into His marvelous light. And I am SO grateful for that. Thank you, Jesus! I praise You, Lord!

You are probably going to challenge me on the above, JF, but that's OK. I know who I am in Christ...and who He is in Me. It's not about how well I perform, it's about HIM and what He has done on the cross.

Perhaps these lyrics from a song I've been working on will express it best (it's a country song):

(chorus 1)
I'M SO GLAD I'M UNDER THE BLOOD
ALL MY SINS ARE CLEANSED BY THE FLOOD
EVEN IF I FALL WITH A THUD
JESUS KEEPS ME UNDER HIS BLOOD

(verse 1)
HE IS FAITHFUL & JUST TO FORGIVE US OUR SINS
IF WE WILL JUST CONFESS THEM TO HIM
JUST GO TO JESUS IF YOU TRANSGRESS
HE WILL CLEANSE YOU FROM UNRIGHTEOUSNESS

(chorus 2)
I'M SO GLAD I'M UNDER THE BLOOD
ALL MY SINS ARE CLEANSED BY THE FLOOD
EVEN IF I FALL IN THE MUD
JESUS KEEPS ME UNDER HIS BLOOD

(verse 2)
PRAISE JESUS OUR LORD FOR HIS MERCY & GRACE
ON THE CROSS AT CALVARY HE TOOK OUR PLACE
AND SHED HIS BLOOD TO PAY FOR OUR SINS
SO INTO NEW LIFE WE CAN ALL ENTER IN

(repeat chorus 1)

I'm still working on it. but I think it sums up what I'm trying to say.

Tyler

Last Edited on 29-Oct-2009 3:32 PM

Hi jf, i just come in here to differ with you on only one point for now! : )

"Some may agree with me on this but most probably won't, but I believe the Ruach HaKodesh (God's Spirit) was given to many but not to all. I believe it was given to those that God had proven to be trustworthy to Him."

Dear jf, i must disagree with you on that one, it is not by trustworthyness nor by any works that we receive the Holy Spirit of God for it is only by faith, better yet, by grace through faith as said here:

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Ephes. 2:8-9) I think it was the same for the prophets, by faith in God and the coming Messiah.

To be more precise, John the Baptist baptised adults in the water and said that Jesus would baptize them with the Spirit and fire which leads us to Jesus asking the the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, rhetoricly:

Mar 11:30 The baptism of John, was [it] from heaven, or of men? answer me.

Then it was the encounter between Jesus and Nicodemus in John chapter 3 where we hear that in order to see the Kingdom of God, a person must be born again but the word again in Greek is even more precise meaning from above, implying that a believer must be convicted of sin in his heart by the Holy Spirit Himself and that the believer by faith received from God will ask God to be baptized from above, the baptism of the Holy Spirit. To as many believed He gave the right to become the children of God.

I would agree to the first part of your statement only in the case of those that are not born of the Spirit. The prophets obeyed God but not all the time, they disobeyed and were disciplined just like us today. The discipline of the Holy Spirit is what killed Ananias and Sapphira in the book of Acts.

What we see in this churchianity, is a bunch of people that call themselves Christians by tradition of belonging to a denomination who might have tasted the good feelings but never ingested salvation or never were sincere in making the Lord, Lord and Master over their lives, they belong to a religion but not to God and are not born of the Spirit.

I'm dependent on the Holy Spirit more and more myself, and as you say without his guidance I'm lost. And as you say I repent daily of known and unknown sin so I agree with you fundementally. Deacon we are the same and we feel the same tugs, it is just each of us interpret those tugs somewhat differently.

Tyler it isn't about the "law," it is doing what He wants us to do (obedience). Just like a little child you had to learn what you were allowed to do and what you weren't. There is no difference here. You know right from wrong not just because your heart tells you but because over the years written laws somewhere defined your parameters. Your earthly parents gave you guides for life based on Biblical teachings. Same thing we have parameters that we live within if we are His children.

Serge brother,

I don't get that technical about it. God's Spirit was poured out on the earth when He formed the world. I'm pretty sure He continued to do so over the thousands of years of human screw ups, but I truly believe that people who were willing to keep His Commandments and follow the "law," He took His pleasure in them as He does in those of us that seek Him today.

Serge I encounter God everyday by looking out my window and seeing a blue bird or a rabbit in my yard. I thank God for every breath I take. As we have said He knows our hearts and from that He determines His sheep. Really brother that is all we need to know. We can dance around the may-pole, but the bottom line so to speak is do we show God our love and if we do then He knows who is His and who isn't. That simple brother, remember God wants us to childlike, humble, yet bold. Keep it simple just believe and you will receive, follow His footprints in the sand.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

Last Edited on 30-Oct-2009 8:21 AM

i am not here to judge you, i was merely saying that in order to see the Kingdom of God, you need to be baptized from above, a baptism that can only be given by Christ Himself and without being technical about it, one can simply ask the Lord to receive that baptism described in John chapter 3.

No religion on earth can give you that, no obedience on earth can give you that, no works nor deeds can give you that, it is a revelation from above rather than a teaching from below from our human institutions, only God Himself can make you born again of His Spirit and give you the seal of the Holy Spirit to be able to become His adopted child and enter into the family of God.

Best to you and yours

Serge

I am still learning every day. But I know I belong to God. I know I am Saved. What rewards I get in heaven will be a reflection of how I deal with the rest of my life here on earth. Yes, I repent every day, because I KNOW I have sinned or will sin. It might just be a prideful thought, but it will be a sin. Jesus took ALL my sins, the omes I committed and will commit. In fact, I feel more like a sinner now that I ever did - but that is the conviction of the Holy Spirit. In the eyes of the World, I am probably a saint!! What I'm trying to say is that we can't view ourselves the same way anymore. We belong to God. If we don't live our lives in a Christ-like (Christian) way, then we are truly taking His Name in vain, and that, to me, is blasphemy.

John 10:27-30 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

God will NOT let us go. He said so! He loves us more that we will ever be able to love Him! Praise God! I belong to Him forever!!

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Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

I know you're not judging me, we are just having what you would call a healthy debate. Just so you know I normally have hide like an elephant so things I take with a grain of salt. However I have been kicked pretty hard by so-called Christians at my last fellowship, but it hasn't detered me in anyway.

As far as believing that God has all of us in His hands, I believe that as long as we stay with the Father. You will never convince me that if I or any one turns away from God and starts living like a heathen that they will still be saved. That my brother you can take to the bank.

Audrey,

We believe about the same. I know that I will never turn my back on the LORD and if I do then I deserve whatever He gives me. I would be a foll to give up what I have found in the LORD and I just wouldn't give that up for the world.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

jf:
Believe me when I say I grasp everything you are saying. I really appreciate all the trouble you have and the others have gone to in order to prove your point. However, if we turn from Christ then are you saying we are still saved?

Response:
The others are not trying to prove their point. I am not trying to prove my point. What I am doing is sharing with you, what God has taught me through His Spirit from His Word, over the many years that I have been a Christian. The Holy Spirit uses many methods of teaching us what we ought to know and one of them is through others who have “learned.” The answer to your question is “yes” if that person is a true believer.

jf:
God love ya all but I still don't buy it.

Response:
As already pointed out, it’s not for sale, no pun intended. You don’t have to buy it - the decision is up to you. But I would ask you to follow the example of the Bereans in Acts. Study what I said in my initial post and what others have responded, compare that to the whole Word, and then decide if what we said is true or not. It’s your decision.

jf:
This is the point here. If you "fall away" or "back-slide" then you come back to the Father, He will accept you but you must go through the process all over again of admitting your sins and ask forgiveness and then repent. Poppa will allow you to come back but you must be truly repentant.

Response:
This is true and this is part of our spiritual growth or sanctification. But this is not the same as one’s initial salvation. When one truly comes a believer, then that believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit in them. That seal is a guarantee that they belong to Christ and an assurance that they will inherit heavenly blessing. This is not a 90 day type guarantee but a forever guarantee. That Holy Spirit then begines a process of spiritual growth called sanctification. When a believer sins, the Spirit convicts him of that sin and then confession and repentance are up to the believer. If they confess they will be forgiven. If they do not, then that sin hinders spiritual growth.

Part of the sanctification process is a conviction of sin by the Holy Spirit. As we submit to the leading and teaching of the Spirit, we grow towards spiritual maturity, with the ultimate goal being, to become like Christ. That process will not be completed in our life-time but will be completed in heaven.

We can hinder or quench the Spirit when we do not submit to the Spirit but rather do things “our way.” Therefore it is necessary to clear the air of all sin and to be willing to learn and be changed if necessary.

jf:
You can call me immature, legalistic, unbelieving whatever you want. I still believe that I have been shown that we need to be humble, repentant, confessing our sins known or unknown everyday and asking for His forgiveness. Our hearts must be in the right place all of the time. Call that legalistic if you like but that is where I will be on my knees every time I realize that I have sinned and at least once a day asking forgiveness for the sins I don't realize.

Response:
No one is calling you legalistic and unbelieving. As for immature, we are all that way when we compare our maturity with what it will someday be. You are correct in saying that our hearts must be "in the right place all of the time." And confession of sin on a regular basis is necessary for spiritual growth so anyone that has this attitude is on the right path. 1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” We confess, He forgives and cleanses. This not only applies to the initial act of salvation but also to a believers who gets off track along the way.

I am going to put on again, a post I did last year, about "backsliding" and "apostasy." This should help to clarify the issue more.

Growing in Him - Joanne

Last Edited on 30-Oct-2009 4:47 PM

Thanks for caring and sharing. I have looked at the texts and I'm going over them again. I'm also looking at them from the Aramaic Bible, Stone's Torah, Chumash, Darby and Jewish Bibles. I'm really not trying to be difficult, but things don't add up for me as they do for you.

I'm going to take my time over the next several months and re-examine what I have gone over and see what I come up with.

I took this to the Rabbi and he believes that once a believer always a believer, but even if you are a believer and you have your "fire insurance policy," you will still be separated from God if you don't keep up with the rules. By that I mean that you will on the outside looking in. But I'm not comfortable with that either so I have a ton of praying and research to do.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

I think there are people that believe with their heads and not their hearts. I think there lies the difference.

Matt 15:8 This people honors me with their lips but their hearts are far from me; in vain they do worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men."

Also, 2 Cor 5:16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one from the human point of view; even though we once regarded Christ from a human point of view, we regard him thus no longer.

I believe there are people that confess Christ with their lips but are NOT TRULY SAVED. THEY BELIEVE THAT THE WHOLE IDEA SOUNDS GOOD BUT HAVE NEVER HAD THE CONVICTION OF HEART THAT JESUS IS GOD AND THE GRIEF OF HEART THAT BRINGS REPENTANCE.

2 Tim 2:12 if we endure, we shall reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

One major issue is that being a Christian orginally brought a death sentence. The testimony of Christ had to be to the death or it meant nothing. It was death for Christ and many of the Apostles.

We loose our life and gain Christs. We must be willing to die for the testimony and the name of Jesus.

Even within the Tribulation it will be a death sentence. Will we confess Christ up to the last second? In Revelation the martered witnesses are many and many beheaded.

Believing God can save, even through death,
Mary

See I'm looking at this like you said in 2 Tim 2:12. I know in my heart that Yeshua, HaShem, (Jesus and Father God) will do everything in their power to get us to freely accept them. Many people do, but then they turn back to the world, like those in the parable of the sower.

Are they eternally saved? I'm not so sure, because as you said those that deny Him, He will also deny. So once again we bring in the question of eternal security. I believe that if they return as the prodigal son did then they are once again saved. I'm beginning to lean a little more toward the fact that once a foundation is built can the foundation be torn down? I have to pray on that.

My wife agrees with the rabbi about you still make paradise, but that you are in to outer court (far from God). You could be on the fringes of outer darkness. I guess I can buy that too if we believe in degrees of guilt. However both the OT & NT plainly states if you break one command you break them all, yet we have the grace factor to bring in too. And if we factor in grace as an option then we could very well have plenty of lee way.

And if there are degrees of guilt then the question comes into play are you guilty enough to go into outer darkness and then spend so much time there and be redeemed to the outer court yard. However Luke basucally says that isn't possible in the story of Lazurus and the rich man. So too many theories, my bet is still on only the truly redeemed make it to paradise and those that back-slide have a chance and that will be to fall on their faces and repent and call out to the LORD for mercy.

I just need to spend more time in prayer.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

Last Edited on 3-Nov-2009 7:28 AM

in your second first and second paragraph, what you write implies that some said yes emotionally but were not convinced from above, it is one thing to say yes but one cannot be saved just by saying yes by peer pressure or by human deeds, the conditions of the heart must be there and that requires that:

-Someone witnessed to them,
-Someone previously prayed for them,
-that person was convicted from above
-That their hearts was softened by God and now loved the truth enough to ackowledge that they were sinners in dire need of a Savior;
-By faith, given from above, said Yes, with sincerity;
-are now indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Always go back to the parable of the Sower; some taste the salvation but never digest it fully, are they saved, not but the difference is in the full digestion and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, once that has been done, there is nothing that can separate you from the love of God and i would add, that there is no way that an indwelt by the Sprit person can lose their salvation because their new lives are hidden in Christ and as soon as they start going astray, life becomes hell and are brought back by the discipline of the Holy Spirit and they go right back to God which is not the case of those who never fully tasted the salvation of our God and are just occupying seats at church on sundays doing their religious duty of presence in the House of God once a week.

Man's way would mean you might be farther from Christ at death "but" what about the parable Matt 20:1-15 of those hired as laborers from the first hour then the hiring at the last hour...

Mat 20:9 And when they came that [were hired] about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

This has to be read in context.
Jesus audience at this time of the parable had pharisees in it.

But, Jf, doesn't this give us Hope for our children or any that have not accepted Our Lord and Savior when "we" think?
Man would go with the idea that longer served means better but Jesus didn't say this. The Words of Jesus makes it clear.
It's God's call not ours because we can't read the heart.

wliJ

I guess I'm not making myself clear. The idea that people once said I accept, and truly believed that they were saved for example at 7 years old. As they got older they went to college and then into the world and got all caught up in the dreggs of the world. Lying cheating stealing whatever to get ahead and make the almighty buck! They turned their back on God and kept it turned until they had a major catastrophe.

Now all of a sudden they cryout to God for help, but they really haven't surrendered. They keep pleading and some things in their life changes around and they get out of what ever the problem was and then they return to the world. Were they ever truly saved? My guess is probably not, but what does that do for the innocent child that gave his/her heart at age 7?

You see many people believe because they were six years old or even 12 years old and surrendered one day, and now they are fully in the world with both feet. Believing that they are saved and they attend services every week but they hate their neighbor, their mad at God because they don't have what they think a child of God should have. They've been divorced more than once, they have marital problems now with their current spouse. What are the odds they were ever saved?

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

That's right we have no call it is God's all the way. He knows what lurks in the heart of men we don't.

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

Again, someone truly saved can still be discouraged by the wiles of the enemy for as far as i know, even though saved (not maybe saved), we still have an enemy that wants to discourage our witness and destroy or even kill us...

Can a Truly born again, born of the Spirit, born from above sinner saved by Grace get caught up in a lifestyle of sin? You bet it can happen.

Does that change anything to the " saved " status of that person? Not at all, the only thing that person has lost is her fellowship, the rewards, her sanctification but not something as important as the salvation that was paid for once and for all.

Can they then get back in fellowship? They sure can with a repentant heart and rededication of their whole lives to Christ ask forgiveness to God and be restored to fellowship with Him but even that would also mean that God Himself would have tugged at their hearts by the discipline of the Holy Spirit to bring them back because life had been miserable to them that were genuinely saved in the first place.

Last Edited on 3-Nov-2009 4:41 PM

Are you writing in French again? LwL

Thank Goodness i did not have LA cuppe of coffee in la bouche, my keyboard and screen would be fried! : )

Last Edited on 4-Nov-2009 1:03 AM

Serge I do understand and I guess you understand me, the problem is that we are on opposing teams over this.

I went back and I reread Romans 6:23+, and I went out and read the commentaries on it. And I guess I am agreeing with JFB on this. What it comes down to in my humble opinion is that it is all up to God's grace. Which I think all of us agree on that point. So therefore the application of that grace as I read it may not be universal.

I know that the Bible says God is no respecter of persons and I believe that whole heartedly, but does that mean that we will be treated exactly the same? I don't believe so. Take Saul and Moshe, both disobeyed God, one got to walk to his funeral and the other fell on his sword. One did definitely go to heaven because Michael came to take the body, and the other we don't know for sure. Both were guilty of disobedience but they were not treated the same as far as we know. So how would grace be applied universally in these case studies?

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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

The LORD [is] merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. (Psalm 103:8)

simply put, let's say you and i were still in our sinful state, before we accepted Christ into our hearts, Jesus went to that cross and and bore our sins on Hmself, God(Jesus) being eternal, bore the sins of humanity (past, present and future) and His Precious blood was shed once and for all, He said: IT IS FINISHED which in those day meant: PAID IN FULL. The day you believed and asked Him into your heart and made Hm Lord over your whole life was the winning day of your whole life, you believed by faith and thus were justified becaue only by faith can we please the Most High, not by your works.

All of us are treated the same in regards to the Salvation which is a ONe Time Deal, the rest of our walk is called Sanctification and what you can lose is your rewards, fellowship with God.

God loves sinners, He came to save what was already lost, He came for those who knew were sinners, not for those who thought they were righteous in their own eyes, He came for those that were in need of the Healer not for those who could walk on their own...

Serge