Christian living can be as tough as you make it. God didn't make it tough.
All of us, at one time or another fall into the trap of linking God's response to our performance. We all have to consider the balance of grace and faith. Grace is unmerited, unearned, undeserved favor. Grace has nothing to do with US. Grace existed before we were born. Grace is God's part. Faith is defined as being the positive response to what God has already provided by grace. The faith is our part. Grace and faith work together as in Eph. 2:8,9 "For by grace your are saved through faith; and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast." We know that salvation is not dependent on grace alone. If it were all would be saved. God's grace is the same toward everyone. Titus 2:11 He has brought the gift of salvation to everyone "through Jesus"......
Jesus died for the sins of the world. Sins of the past, present and future. ALL Sins have been forgiven. God is no respecter of persons. Rom 2:11
God has done His part now we do ours by receiving the truth "by Faith" and make it reality. The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. John 16:8-9 "And when He is come (Holy Spirit) he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness and of judgment. Of sin, because they do not believe on me"
People do not go to hell for committing adultery, stealing, or even murder. Those like all sins have been "paid for"...
The sin people go to hell for the sin of rejecting Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. Those who believe on/in Christ Jesus are sealed.
So, perhaps the enemy would like us all to magnify the sin in our life to prevent us from doing God's will? The law did that and it did not work. Repeat, the law cannot fix what is wrong with humanity. Jesus is the only sacrifice that could ever fix what is wrong. He did this long before any of us were ever born.
Now we can come boldly to the throne....... Hbr 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace,(unmerited, unearned, undeserved favor)
If there is any other way to describe the everlasting love of God, it is like you so well said here, the journey of searching for vain things finally stops where grace through faith meets the believer at the foot of the cross where in complete brokenness and humbleness we bow down before the Absolute Truth of our Majesty on High and His Glory.
Praise be given to our Precious Lord Yeshua Ha Maschiach
"as the Father has loved me, so i have loved you. Live on in my LOVE.............the command that i give you is this, that you LOVE one another."- John 15 : 9 thru 17.-____with Love\PEACE/Hope in my Lord JESUS Christ, i-daniel pray too my FATHER for All-my-Neighbours, as humbly moved by my GOD's Holy Spirit of LOVE.
I'm probably considered a pariah but I have one question to ask. Hypothethically speaking, you have already admitted you are a sinner and you have received Jesus into your heart and He has wiped the slate clean. If you go out and commit more sin do you need to repent of the new sin or not? And if you do why, and if you don't why not?
This where I am hung up so if you would be so kind as to explain. ---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
Some Christian religious groups, after presenting salvation as a free gift of God’s grace, turn right around and teach new believers that their continuing relationship with the Lord now depends on their performance. If they don’t live "the holy way as obeying the religious groups way of doing things" etc., then the Lord won’t bless them or answer their prayers or even worse, He can't Love them. Some religious groups pray to statues, light candles and some bow down on the alter of SELF righteousness. Self didn't fix you Jesus did. Who are you going to believe. Jesus or self?
Some types of thinking will block a person from "receiving" the love of God. When their performance falls short, and it always does, their own hearts will condemn them. They just can’t believe God could love them. The truth is that God’s love for us has nothing to do with our performance as previously stated. God loves us because He is love (1 John 4:8), not because we are lovely or lovable. It is that a lack of seeing ourselves “in Christ” is the root of all unbelief and failure to experience God’s pure love. . Much of what people believe about God’s rejection of us comes from Scripture. Some use Old Testament scriptures as the basis for what they believe, not understanding that Jesus forever changed God’s dealings with mankind. These people don’t understand the difference between the way God dealt with people under the Old Covenant of the Law and the way He now deals with us through Christ. Jesus told us specifically about the old wine and the new wine. Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runs out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.
Second Corinthians 5:19 says, “ that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”
Under this New Covenant, God is not imputing our sins unto us. They are nailed to the Cross. That is the exact opposite of what happened under the Old Covenant. This is explained in detail in the New Covenant, and yet the body of Christ as a whole can miss this truth. Some Christians are still under sin consciousness, the very thing that Old Testament saints longed to be free from. They saw our covenant by faith and prophesied about the superiority of the New Covenant that God would make with mankind (1 Pet. 1:10-12). God’s people truly are destroyed for lack of knowledge (Hos. 4:6).
So, who convicts you of sin in your life now? You? Or, is it the Holy Spirit that guides you into all truth?
JF: Hypothethically speaking, you have already admitted you are a sinner and you have received Jesus into your heart and He has wiped the slate clean. If you go out and commit more sin do you need to repent of the new sin or not? And if you do why, and if you don't why not? This where I am hung up so if you would be so kind as to explain.
Response: Yes jesusfreak, even believers need to confess their new sin, otherwise it will interfere with the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives. When one receives Christ into their heart, all past sins are wiped clean as you say. They are, however, still tempted while they live in the world, and at times may give in to that temptation. That is why we are told in 1 John 1:8&9 “If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” It is one of the “jobs” of the Holy Spirit to convict the believer of sin in his life so that it can be confessed. When sin is taken care of then it can not interfere with the work of the Spirit to grow us as believers.
Thank you Laura for your post. The old hymn says it best: Amazing grace how sweet the sound Tha saved a wretch like me I oce was lost but now I'm found was blind but now I see.
So as you say we must confess the new sins we do and repent and ask God to forgive us and accept His forgiveness in faith and then we have been made "Holy" once more. So by your own admittion you do the same thing I do we just call it differently.
I don't know if you believe that there is no way to lose your salvation because of God's grace, but I believe if we die in known unrepentant sin you may not go where you think you will. I believe that God's grace covers the unknown sin or involuntary sin we step into everyday. Voluntary unrepented sin is a diffrerent ball game but that is my view.
God doesn't have to get out an eraser to remove us from the Lamb's Book of Life, however we have not come to the final judgment either. The true judgment will be the "catching away," the rapture for the true belivers. I fear many will be surprised at the outcome. That is why Jesus many said Lord, Lord, I cast out demons in your name, and the Lord turned and said I never knew you. We hide behind this idea of true regeneration, but I think that to is misleading. At any rate it won't be long now.
The one world government is only a few weeks away now and once that is started look up. ---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
I don't believe that Joanne said repentance of sin would make us holy again. We aren't holy till we are glorified. (death as a believer and in heaven)
There are three processes. Justification, sanctification and glorification.
Joanne's response was: The Holy Spirit shows us 1 John 1:8&9 “If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves. If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” It is one of the “jobs” of the Holy Spirit to convict the believer of sin in his life so that it Can be confessed. When sin is taken care of then it can not interfere with the ***work of the Spirit*** to grow us as believers.
I've magnified some of this response.
One of the reasons I believe in OSAS is Corinthians.
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the Spirit may be Saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
So many believe that when you are justified you want to keep on sinning. No one wants to! I John 1 says that we will. God sees the heart. He sees our intentions. Paul says it himself...I do want I don't want to do.... The power of the Holy Spirit is so big and so strong that He will convict you of the sin you need to deal with...step by step He will bring you into Truth and He will do it.
As a human parent, there is nothing that could stop me from loving my children. If they love me back, then I can freely give to them. Where as, I can't give them my love and my human blessings when they aren't in a relationship with me.
Do you see what I mean? A human parent is nothing like a divine parent so how much more can God give to those who love Him?
I'm not the greatest communicator so I hope I've conveyed the understanding without offense.
To continue on to what Laura stated "So many believe that when you are justified you want to keep on sinning." When one is "born again" they are given a new nature and this nature can commune with God. It is responsive to the leading of the Holy Spirit in one's life and their desire is to please God. All of life's growing process in the Lord is what Laura called "sanctification" and this is what the Holy Spirit does in us. He sanctifies us. Yes we do fall into sin but as we grow in the Lord and learn the lessons He has for us that sin should become less. Not that we can ever completely conquer sin in this lifetime. For example: through the work of the Holy Spirit I very, very seldom swear. That was a frequent thing for me at one time. Now if it comes out I immediately confess it so that that slip does not come between me and my relationship with my God.
If a believer dies without repenting of all of their sins, they still have salvation. Jesus said in John 10:28 "I give to them eternal life and they shall never perish..." Get that? NEVER PERISH! Can we take God at His word or not.
What happens is when that Christian gets to heaven then he will be rewarded or not for the life that he has lived since his salvation. His works are either gold, silver and precious stones, or they are wood, hay and straw. As the following verse describes: I Corinthians 3: 11-15 "For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
I am going to put on a previous post to explain the position of OSAS or Eternal Security.
Paul says that we are immediately made holy when we called upon the name of the LORD in 1 Corinthians 6:11. So if we were made "holy" at that point why is being "holy" an on going process as stated in Hebrews 10:10,14,29? Are we getting holier?
JoAnne-Get that? NEVER PERISH! Can we take God at His word or not.
I always take God at His word as long as it is taken in context to the Bible. Then I have a question, are you or anyone for that matter,100% sure you are one of His sheep? I know it says I give you the Holy Spirit as a down payment on salvation, but if santification is an on going thing then what about the Holy Spirit?
If we are under the new covenant and God has written His laws on our hearts and on our minds as stated in Jeremiah and Hebrews, wouldn't everyone already have the Holy Spirit since we are all supposed to know God's Laws and we won't have to tell our neighbors?
Never perish, does that include outer darkness? Will we perish if we are in outer darkness? We will perish if we are in the pit? I thought we would still be alive (Spiritually) to know the everlasting torment?
I'm not looking to start an agrument just curious for what are your answers! ---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
How long did it take for the children to get out of Egypt? How long did it take for God to get Egypt out of His children?
I know I'm saved because I know what Christ did on the Cross. Scripture tells me that there are some that think the Cross is foolishness. Believers don't.
Jesus found me late in my life and the Holy Spirit is taking the world out of me. I have to want God, trust God and look at the fruit of my life to see where I'm at. Most of the time, I don't see it. Those around me see it. The Holy Spirit is working with my faith. The glory goes to God.
To my mind and heart now, it seems that our character changes when we have a relationship with Jesus and our neighbors see it! It's not always about telling but it is about being. The fruits of the Spirit speak louder than any voice.
I do not believe that anyone who has relationship with Jesus can be in outer darkness. The pit was never designed for man but if man does not accept Jesus then he makes the decision to go there and yes it is everlasting torment.
In prayer, I ask that God have mercy on all of our loved ones who don't know Him yet. And may all of our households be saved.
One day soon God will make Himself known firsthand to his people when He defends them in the valley of Megiddo. No, not Rev. 16:16's Armageddon. It will be when Russia, teamed with others north of the sand piles, Iran and other Arab States will march on Israel as stated in Ez. 38.
Perhaps then the fear and knowledge of God will once again come upon the Jewish people and those of the Gentile world. If one IS born again and alive at that war, we won't be around sometime before or shortly after that massive disaster. (I think before.)
It's vastly important that we teach the truth, as we do on here, and try to get as many souls to Him as possible. We ain't a long for this earth, my dear brothers and sisters. Russia just the other day offered to help Iran "store its nuclear materials." Right! That's like saying, "Here, Satan, hold my gun."
You are correct as usual, Laura. Jesus said that "anyone who calls upon My name shall be saved." But we need to go far beyond simply believing He died on that cross and walked out of there alive, as He did. We must put it to action. The change must be obvious.
If, JF, you are questioning your salvation, don't! We--all of us on here--can assure you that if you have give your life to Christ you will NOT perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:16). That's our guarantee written in blood, my good friend.
Unless I'm mistaken the word 'gospel' means 'good news'. Much of what you are saying doesn't sound like very good news to me. It sounds like bad news, that it's still up to me to try to be pleasing to God. That sounds like every other religion in the world, what I must do to be pleasing to God. I might as well be a muslim. Silly me...I thought God reached out to me in His goodness & grace.
I thought Christianity was unique, that it's about what God has done to make me pleasing to Him. I thought that when I got saved and covered by the blood Jesus that His holiness was imparted to me. I thought that when He sees me thru the blood of His Son Jesus, He sees me as Holy, perfect and complete. I thought I was purified, sanctified, redeemed & justified. I also thought nothing could take that away from me. Why do I think that? Romans 8:38 -
"For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing shall be able to seperate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord".
Seems to me this verse covers all the bases. God bless you in your efforts to study & live by law with your rabbi. I choose to live in the libery of His grace.
I was 56 Years old when God finally got my attention. It took the loss of my family and all around me except my faithful wife. I have been on a whirlwind ride with God ever since. He separated my wife and me from the outside world for about a year before we started at this fellowship, but even there He kept us at arms length until we had spent enough time in the Word to see the false teachings around us. Just recently after two years at this fellowship He moved me out and planted me with the Messianic Fellowship I am with now. The reason is to understand "how" to study the word and get the most out of it. I study about two to three hours everyday if possible, and on the sabbath as much as six or eight hours I can't get enough.
Just as you said God is still getting "Egypt" out of me, but I still am very limited as to what I feel He allows me to read and to watch. I am to spend all of my free time in the Bible and I allow Him to direct me to what I am supposed to study. But like you I'm learning and I am open to hear, but also like you I take it before the LORD. I think our biggest problems are communication. Had we been able to communicate properly we probably would have found that we are on the same page a week ago. You see I'm still learning "Christianeze" if you will. We both say the same thing but it has a different meaning to each of us and that is where we run into misunderstandings.
Deacon & Bill we are on the same page. I am exstatic that God latched on to me, but I fear for my fellow man. Just this morning my wife and I were praying for the people we pray with on various websites and it seems to be getting darker for them. Our hearts break for those that don't see the light that God is shining for them in the darkness. I am so glad I found God and that He takes up most of my time, like being here and talking with you or answering prayer requests. I couldn't be happier if I were twins. ---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
JF, I pray for you and strength to care for your wife. Been there done that, as they say. But love knows no bounds.
I praise the Lord that you found Him, even late in life. No time is too late unless it is too late. I was 32, but I have given God and my Savior heartburn in the past 31 years. Keep strong in Him.
Love true love knows no bounds, but in my in laws case I don't understand them. My poor wife has been kicked when she was down so many times by her parents I just don't understand. My folks couldn't do enough for me, and hers wouldn't do anything for her. Yet she loved them completely. Her mom stabbed her once, came at her with a broken bottle, tried to smother her, just amazing, but my wife still loves her and all this abuse just makes her cry.
But we have resolved ourselves to the fact that there are some people that God will not bring under His protection. He knows that all will not be saved although He wants them all to be saved. Some people are going to be too hard headed to accept Him.
There is so much that has happened, my son is gay and becuase my wife and I have accepted Christ, we told him that we could no longer condone his lifestyle. We told him that we loved him unconditionally, but we could not accept his lifestyle. Ever since then he has refused to talk with us and now with the new "Hate Crimes" legislation he has threaten to have us charged with a hate crime if we try and contact him.
My in laws and the junk they pulled is not important what is important is the fact that God because He loved My wife and me, reached down and snatched us up and delivered us from all the junk these folks were trying to do to us.
We have lost just about all that we had our business is floundering, but God is sustaining us and keeping us alive. We live strictly by His exceeding grace. I'm behind in the mortgage, our bills are running behind, but God is feeding us and keeping a roof over our heads for now. So praise God for He is our Bread of Life. Amen?
---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
Jf, When you first came on this forum, I thought you were SDA.
In my walk with Christ, I've had the biggest trouble in life when I was in "legalism".... God set me free and I'd put myself back in the box or in the Bible sense, back under the law or back under bondage. In my years before Christ, I was very catholic then very occult. All cults have the same smell to me. I do find myself attacking the agendas of these. It's been a long time for me to believe that God says what He means and means what He says. I had to go to teachers on site and TV to understand what Grace really meant. (a journey from mind to heart) I look back and see that whatever I was watching on TV was Holy Spirit taught then off to the next part of the journey so to speak. One day I was in a Christian book store and saw a book called,"The Obnoxious Christian". To make a long story short....I found out I was one. I mean I expected this book should have at least been dedicated to me.:) I took the love God gave and tried to beat people over the head with it. (Sometimes literally:) If you aren't SDA, I apologize for any harshness I have dealt to you.
I have learned that I can't give God's gift of Jesus to anyone. It's His gift to give, not mine. If anyone cannot see what He has done (even in my life) then that's really their problem. I hope my tears, like your wife's tears will soften the ground so the seed of our precious Lord will find root in our sons.
God gave us His Love and He also gave us His burden of Love for others. He took me as the song says;"Just as I am/was" so I have to take others just as they are. I have to hate the sin but never, never the sinner.
In the churches I've tried to attend, I got so much out of the Bible Study. To me the church itself was only fellowship but some have churches they really enjoy going too.
There are some really good Bereans in this forum and I hope you will absorb what their Spirit imparts to you. This whole ministry is amazing! I wish I wasn't thousands of miles away from Orangville. The way Rod set it up I don't' have to be so on any day of the week you/I can watch Rod preach. He's worth watching.:) And, I love John Hagee. I even have his study Bible. Chuck Missler is a favorite. That's the Blue Letter Bible with it's own site, concordances and all of the types of Bibles to compare each other too.
12And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found. ---------- Walking in Faith
Thanks both of you for the kind words. I appreciate where you are coming from and your struggle to get to where you are. Even though I live in PA. I often say I am from Missouri (the show me state) because I am hard headed and more often than not I like to learn the hard way.
That may seem stupid to you all, but sometimes the journey to get to where you want to be or need to be is worth all of the heartache and heart-break. I really enjoy the "Aha's" I get when I am studying the Word and something finally clicks. I guess it is the hard-headed German lineage I come from.
I appreciate your input and I will take it to heart, but as I said I am stubborn as an old mule and I will find the truth when the LORD reveals it to me. No offense intended but I prefer to spend my time reading and rereading God's word. I have gotten away from comparing scripture in all of the different versions and translations because I have not taken the time to do that like I used to, but I have decided to begin to do that again.
I like Rod Hembree but there are some points he has made that I totally disagree with, and last night was another one. I guess I'm going to go back to just letting Father God guide my steps. I am going to let Him guide me to where He wants me to be and what He tells me to watch.
God Bless all of you ---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
If you disagee with a point Rod has made, then may I suggest you go to FAQ on sunday nights,,you can use Team speak to talk directly, or you can type questions in live chat. Rod would be the first one to tell you ,,he is only a man and not perfect.
As you said Rod is only human and it is possible he made a mistake. Before I take it to him I going to pray about it first. I'm going to take it before the ultimate Teacher and let Him guide me and see where He takes me.
But thanks for caring! ---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
You are the one who accused Rod of being wrong. What does the bible say about that? Take it to the person first and then if they dont listen take it to the elders. You chose to take it here on the forum first, that was your choice. I am only suggesting you talk to him directly. ---------- Walking in Faith
I have been reading this very interesting exchange. It's another verson of the OSAS debate, but a worthy one. Just one comment... when Jesus died on the Cross, he atoned for all our sins... the ones we made before we were saved, and the ones we will make tomorrow. We must simply come to Him in repentance. When the Holy Spirit is in a Saved Person, then that person is convicted of the sin he has committed and will WANT to repent of it, don't you think? Whenever I mess up, I am really upset about it and immediately cry out to God to forgive me. It doesn't mean I won't sin again, but that I don't WANT to sin.
Paul states, in Romans 7:14-25 "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."
You know Moriah I just might do that. It is quite possible I misunderstood what he meant and then again it is possible we will disagree like we do here.
Audrey,
I find that I must not make myself very clear when I speak, but as you said Jesus (Yeshua) is our one time once for all sacrifice. Our Olah offering which we will never have to offer up again, but as you say now our offerings are our prayers, our repentance, our wills, all of which signify our sacrifying our flesh to the LORD, and to His will.
As Psalm 50 Says He (God) doesn't want our sacrifices, but what He wants is our obedience, then He wants to rescue us when we are in trouble then we are to give Him all the glory, pure and simple. Glory to God in the Highest. ---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
Jf: Please - you may consider it a little thing but my name is spelled Joanne. Ok?
JoAnne, Paul says that we are immediately made holy when we called upon the name of the LORD in 1 Corinthians 6:11. So if we were made "holy" at that point why is being "holy" an on going process as stated in Hebrews 10:10,14,29? Are we getting holier?
Response: 1 Corinthians 6:11 - “And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.”
The verse says that the believers were “washed…sanctified…justified”
- “washed” - refers to new life given to believers through a spiritual cleansing and regeneration - “sanctified” - this results in new behaviour which is the result of a transformed life because sin’s hold on a believer has been broken; this is not perfection but stresses a new direction and growth for the believer - “justified” - a new standing before God where the believer is dressed in the righteousness of Christ “by the Spirit of our God” - the Holy Spirit is the agent by which these processes take place.
Jf: JoAnne-Get that? NEVER PERISH! Can we take God at His word or not. I always take God at His word as long as it is taken in context to the Bible. Then I have a question, are you or anyone for that matter,100% sure you are one of His sheep?
Response: If you always take God at His Word then why are you questioning the verses that tell us that “they will never perish.“
Yes of course I am 100% sure that I am one of His sheep. The main reason for believing that way is because I have experienced His love and forgiveness and have seen a great change in my life, and it’s a spiritual change as well as a worldly change. 1 John 5:13 - “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life…”
Paul said it best in 2 Timothy 1:12 “…nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.”
Jf: I know it says I give you the Holy Spirit as a down payment on salvation, but if sanctification is an on going thing then what about the Holy Spirit? If we are under the new covenant and God has written His laws on our hearts and on our minds as stated in Jeremiah and Hebrews, wouldn't everyone already have the Holy Spirit since we are all supposed to know God's Laws and we won't have to tell our neighbors?
Response: Jeremiah 31:33 - “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” Hebrews 8:10 - “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”
Hebrews 8:10 is the author quoting Jeremiah 31:33. If you note in the Jeremiah reference, the covenant is being made with the Hebrew nation. Those laws were being written on the hearts of the Hebrews in that particular covenant. You cannot take what was written to the Jews and apply it to all people everywhere - it does not do the Word justice. Please see my post on “Backsliding” where I discuss some of what the Spirit does in a believer’s life.
Jf: Never perish, does that include outer darkness? Will we perish if we are in outer darkness? We will perish if we are in the pit? I thought we would still be alive (Spiritually) to know the everlasting torment?
Response: Believers will never perish. Period. That means that when they die they will inherit eternal life in heaven. If Christ raptures the church before a believer’s death then he will be taken straight to heaven.
- “outer darkness” - “where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” - this describes the eternal torments of hell, the final abode for the non-believer - “pit” - that place prepared for Satan and some disobedient angels - “everlasting torment” - also describes hell, the final abode for the non-believer
The church, the Bride of Christ will not know the everlasting torment. It will be experiencing eternal joy in heaven.
Tyler: Unless I'm mistaken the word 'gospel' means 'good news'. Much of what you are saying doesn't sound like very good news to me. It sounds like bad news, that it's still up to me to try to be pleasing to God. That sounds like every other religion in the world, what I must do to be pleasing to God. I might as well be a muslim. Silly me...I thought God reached out to me in His goodness & grace.
dear neighbours, good today toooo yous and yours._____neighbour, joanne; you state-" You cannot take what was written on the hearts/to the jews and apply it to all people everywhere"____Jesus asked the 'scribes and pharisees' of his day to find out what david was saying in psalm 40, and that he-Jesus was trying to point out the dream revilation that Samuel recieved from GOD, about how Saul had been dis-obedient to GOD, and therefore lost his kingship/anointing.- 1 Samuel 15 -.___my point is that GOD has not changed, and his ways are not our ways, that is why we follow in the foot steps of our Lord JESUS Christ, GODS anointed SON, to learn his 'way' of salvation, as written in our Hearts, as read to each individual memmber by GOD's Holy Spirit of LOVE.___you dear sister are loved by our Father as i am as well, make no mistake.____with love\peace/hope in the promises of GOD, made real by the Living Lord JESUS Christ, who Lived\died/Lives-Again to the GLORY of GOD our FATHER, i-daniel humbly be-live, as written on my heart.____p.s. It was laura that brought us too pauls letter to those Ephesian Christ-Followers, which ends with these Awsome words- "May GOD the FATHER and the Lord Jesus Christ grant the brothers 'peace and love and faith'. Grace be with ' ALL ' who love our Lord JESUS Christ with unfailing LOVE."- Ephesians 6 : 23+24.
God reached out to me before I knew Him. He reached out to me in my walk with Him for 20 years. Then I took a stupid pill and did the Prodical Son thing. But just like that Father, mine was standing there waiting for me, watching over me, with his arms outstretched He took me back and made my life even better the second time around.
I highly DO NOT recommend anyone do this: stay as close to the Bible and the Lord as possible. This "Bride of Christ's" is a dirty bunch, a bloody bunch, a sinful bunch, but WE are the Bride of Christ. How? Through his suffering, death and resurrection. None of us, not one, is perfect. And none of us will be perfect until our God and Father dresses us in our white robes for the wedding day with our Savior and King.
My backsliding caused some people to scuffa me, call me names, but I just let 'em because they were right. But the love of Christ knows no end, no boundries, no limit. Praise His Holy precious Name!
God made a covenant with we Gentiles, too. As Joanne stated, the church will not see torment and damnation. Oh, we will suffer loss for what we didn't do; it will burn up. But what we DO for Him will not. We will receive crowns for it. Our witness and teaching on here is part of what we are to do for the Lord.
Honestly Joanne, you can beat me with a ball bat, a cane, a tree limb, it just doesn't matter, because I'm not buying it. I'm sorry I'm just a hard headed kind of guy. I guess it was the way my mom brought me up. You screw up you go to hell unless you repent. Someday we will all know the truth but until then it doesn't bother me in the least. As far as I see it, it just means I need to pay attention and respect (fear) God all the more for being just. As Solomon said the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom!
If we have back-slid and we are in a state of sin and we die without repenting, I going to believe that you put yourself in hell. God has given you the chance to make yourself right with him (and to stay right with him) and if you use your own free will and step into sin then I think you get your just deserts.
Now the next question would be if that is the case does the punishment fit the crime? Many believe that God being a just God will only punish you according to your crime. So many believe that eternal damnation is reserved only for Satan and his demons, what do you all think? ---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
Back sliding is also known as bearing no fruit. How do we know when we are bearing fruit? It's not about warm fuzzy feelings but of the will of God. A very militant Christian (who can keep others far from the book) can bear little fruit but still love God as his first love. Judgment from a man can turn some away from the Word. Love can turn a man toward Jesus.
Okay back-sliding is bearing no fruit so in John 15, Jesus says He is the true vine and His Father is the Husbandman. It states that He prunes all of the branches that produce no fruit and the casts them into the pile to be burned!
Now I interpret that as being cut off period until we re-establish ourselves with the vine. Do you see it that way or not? I realize that we are pruned to bear more fruit but in that instance would you not agree that the Father is correcting or allowing trials to afford us a better connection with the reality of Kingdom living? ---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
I don't believe the Father allows trials to reform us per say....not on this side of the Cross.
Remember when Joanne or Vlad was talking about justification, sanctification and glorification? These being the tree fold salvation dynamics for want of better words.:)
Justification is asking Jesus into your life. (this could happen when we were seven years old)
Sanctification is the Holy Spirit with you cleaning up your life till your death. (in my own life I know I loved God when I was a child but never knew Jesus till I was given the Holy Spirit)
Glorification is putting off the corruptible body and having a new body that is incorruptible.
For example: I'm a smoker. For the first time in life I have asked the Father, through Jesus seriously to have the Holy Spirit help me give it up. God didn't put the craving for cigarettes in my life to prune me, right.? The enemy put my carnal self in the way of the sin, and I allowed it. God never wanted this in my life. His strength/grace and my faith in Him will be the power that brings me through this trial.
From a two pack smoker a day to six in one day is truly a miracle for me. Praise report!!!!!!! Sign saying uncompleted work going on in the Spirit :)
So, what I really mean is that God doesn't give sins. If this is what you mean about trials then I would have to say no.
Through wisdom of the Scripture we would have everything promised by Scripture. Right? The fruits of the Spirit.
Because i don't have some of the fruits of the Spirit would mean wrong thinking through tradition, worldly ways and/or not reading the Scripture enough?
When we take Christ as our Savior we do not in any way become perfect. That has been stated, and it can't be more true.
We are going to sin. The disciples did. King David did right up to the end, but God said he was a man afer His own heart. Oh, that this could be said of us, despite ourselves!
I was saved 20 years and backslid. I'm not gonna belabor it here again. However, I knew Christ had not forsaken me. I knew in my heart all the things I was doing were wrong. I kept asking myself: "Why are you doing these things, saying this stuff, thinking this way?" I had taken a stupid pill and had to swallow it.
When I fulfilled "my days," my punishment was fulfilled also. It was more than I thought I could bear, but I deserved every smack, every loss and I took it like a man of God should: I wept and bowed before Him.
A psychologist could not figure out why I had not blown my brains out. He stopped taking notes, looked at me puzzled and asked me point blank. I told him I no longer had any brains. I spent 'em all.
This guy was supposed to be a Christian. Boy, did I testify to him! The doc couldn't figure out why I was so calm. I told him how the hand of Christ came out to me, how He had forgiven me but did not sympathize, just told me to guit blubbering and get to work. I also told him he needed this Christ or he would not have asked why I didn't pop my noodles.
Christ knew, and I knew the path I had taken. Too many people take Christ too casually, to symbolic. I believe that's what I was doing withour realizing it. It's why the Lord told me He didn't want one foot in the Kingdom and the other in the world.
Most "mainline Christains" do not take Him for the King of kings and Lord of lords He is. Would we--and I'm including myself--say, do or act certains ways we do if Christ were standing there looking at us? Well, He is!
I talked to a Catholic today who told me his daugher's friend was giving up "religion" as soon as she graduated from her Catholic high school. He advised her against it. The teen, however, told him the church was too judgemental. That's the problem with most of "we Christains," we are too judgemental. I suggested she forget religion and concentrate on Christ.
I'm working with some really bad people these days, but despite what they've done my sins are just as dark as theirs, I told them. Some couldn't believe that.
Sister Laura pinned it to the wall. I just tossed a couple darts.
I guess again I'm not making myself clear. Can we agree that God gives us correction? If we have moved forward and we have gained some ground but we are still sliding past something God can and may bring in correction to get you to where He wants you to be. May we agree on that?
So if we agree that He corrects us or allows us to be corrected would we not be able to equate that to pruning us to bare more fruit?
On the other hand if a branch is not producing any fruit and it is diseased (sinfilled) would it not be cut off and tossed into the fire to save the rest of the vine?
Now I already hear the statement we are all sinfilled and we all fall short of the glory of God, but I'm not talking about you and me because we still produce "some" fruit and we may need that pruning (correction) to produce more fruit. I'm talking about the back-slider that has turned from God and is doing his/her's own thing. Not the same at all! ---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
Sometimes, I read a person saying black sliders and know that we all have been and may still be in one area or another. I don't feel that you can judge anyone once you accept Christ because HE didn't.
Rom 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. (Romans 2 is good to read whenever we think we've reached a plateau of good behavior.:)
If we are told to hate the sin and love the sinner then who is a backslider? Isn't this person a sinner like us who needs encouragement and needs to be shown the Love of Christ even more? Wouldn't this alone be the pruning of self that you are speaking of?
I guess I don't know how to answer you Laura, because I'm lost. From a practical aspect and trying to place some form of logic to what you are all saying not just you Laura has me stumped.
Laura asked- If we are told to hate the sin and love the sinner then who is a backslider? Isn't this person a sinner like us who needs encouragement and needs to be shown the Love of Christ even more? Wouldn't this alone be the pruning of self that you are speaking of?
I don't know how to answer that because in that case God would move on someone's heart to speak up and speak out to that person and show them that they were off track. Yes that would be a form of pruning if the person accepted the comments of the person sent to point out the areas that need improvement. But nine out of ten times that doesn't happen unless the person doing the pointing out is a trusted friend.
But taking it up to the scripture reference you are saying we are not to judge, but Paul expressly tells us to judge and to speak out. So here we are again at another paradox. Paul tells us to disassociate ourselves from those that are not following the path. So now what?
I don't want to be offensive but, I'm sorry but I see no balance here. What I see here is over spiritualization. At some point we have to make a move. I see no one here has a problem pointing out and hammering someone if they think differently (i.e. jonzy and the trinity), or me at the beginning on the Sabbath. At some point, we need step back and look at what we believe and retool our minds.
Further on in the chapter, Paul states everyone will be judged according to his deeds. He states that those continue in their good works, seeking glory, honor, and immortality will receive eternal life. But those who do not obey the truth and follow iniquity, he will render indignation and wrath. So what does that mean?
There's no Spiritualization there just plain old fire and brimstone. To me that says straighten up and fly right or face the chastizement of a righteous God. There's the balance I was talking about.
---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
All balance is in the Holy Spirit. As believers in Christ we have totally given over our lives and the Holy Spirit lives in us. The Holy Spirit guides us, convicts us and teaches us. If, we are in Christ.
Jesus said "for or against,Him" That's it! We are to renew our minds everyday!
Spiritualization? Thank you.(even tho it's not a word)
I was raised to think Luther was a heretic so this is a great compliment and I take joy from it. How you meant it is in your heart.:)
If we relied on our own ability to "keep the law" we would be doomed. Moses even failed and if anyone was "righteous", it was Moses. True believers will continue to sin (I've said this before), but we are sealed in the Holy Spirit. True believers do not want to sin, but we can't help it. We don't turn away from living righteously, but we always fall short. We are judged by what is in our heart. Believers are given a new heart, are we not? When we are in heaven, we will be judged by what we did with the gifts God gave us, and will be rewarded as such. But we will not be judged with unbelievers. Someone once compared our judgment to this: At the throne of God, instead of playing the movie of our lives, Jesus will show the movie of His life instead! It's a little trite as a comparison, but it makes it easier to understand His gift to us.
dear neighbours,good tonight toooyous alll._____we talked before of the differance between Judging and Disernment, and so all should learn the differance betwwen these two actions of human-thought;____and as for sin, there is only 'one' that cannot be repentant for, and that is the one demmonstrated by the thoughts of conspiracy by, Ananias+Sapphira.- Acts 4:27 thru. 5:11. -____[ conviction by the Spirit, leads to repentance of the heart, for all other sin's, when allowed time by the grace of GOD.],and so i-daniel humbly be-live, and in the name of my Lord JESUS Christ i pray is true, toooo GOD my FATHER,as moved by the Holy Loving Spirit._____p.s. too all, i stand with brother peter in his statement of faith/truth to the "religious leaders" of his time, as moved by THE Loving Holy Spirit, as recorded by Luke in his new-testament book- 'Acts of the Apostles' - in chap. 5 : 17 thru.32.
However I think we are still missing a very important point here. That point being "keeping the law." There are two meanings connected to that in my mind at least and I think we tend to think that when we try to follow "the law," we have a tendency to think that the person who is making that effort is doing it to receieve salvation or browny points or some special dispensation. My wife and I don't do it for that reason at all, because we realize that we are redeemed by faith in Jesus Christ and our sins have been washed away by God's grace in providing the perfect sacrifice. Paul said that the person that chooses to do that does it because he is showing his love for the LORD.
However, as Jesus, John, and, Paul have all stated, if you love God you will keep His Commandments, and they will not be burdensome. Is it possible to keep all 613 of the Commandments of God? I doubt it only one person did that and that was Jesus Christ, but does that release us from stiving to do so? No it does not. We have been commanded by Jesus himself to keep His (God's) commandments if we love Him. Not the just "Love your neighbor as you love yourself," but all of the law. As Gentiles we have been excused from some 200 laws, but the remainder God expects us to give it an honest heartfelt try otherwise why would Jesus have said what He said? Why would John have reiterated it, and why would Paul say that if it weren't for the law he would not have known what sin was? And because he knew what sin was he tried to avoid it.
Romans 2:28-29 (New Living Translation)
28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.
So from the verses above that says to me that we are all "true Jews," if we believe in HaShem & Yeshua as our hearts have been changed, but it says also that because our hearts are changed (circumsized) we still need to follow the law. It says not merely obeying the law or having a changed heart, but a combination of both.
Whether the law is written on your heart or on stone tablets, the point is we need to do the right thing everyday. As my rabbi says you can be a Noahide and follow only 7 of the 10 commandments, or you can strive for all 413 of the gentiles, or you can go all the way to the 613 laws required by the Jews. The choice is yours, but remember Jesus' statement if you love me you will keep my commands, John added they won't be burdensome because you the more you love Yeshua the closer you wish to be to Him and HaShem.
James 4:7-8 state the more we resist the Devil the closer we draw to HaShem (King of the Universe). Think about this if you will, as I interpret that verse it means the more we are willing to do God's bidding, and the more we do God's bidding the further we remove sin from our every day lives. I feel that is what HaShem has placed on my heart. Keep my commands, and follow the festivals. If God has not drawn you in that direction then God did not draw you in that direction.
You can be Noahide if you choose, that does not stop you from being saved just as following all 613 laws do not stop you from being saved if you realize that following the law is not what you do to be saved. You must realize that you are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach. No matter who we are no matter what we do it comes down to the grace of God that will save us nothing else. And I do mean nothing else.
Jesus said you will have eternal life and I believe that without a doubt. But as I read in Romans 2 as Laura suggested the question of where that eternal life will be is still of our own making. ---------- All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,
