Dr Leakey said: "Yes Laura...you do have a gun to your head.Without your reward for good behaviour would you you be a good person? The difference between you guys and me is that i can be a good person without the threat of going to hell or the reward of heaven. That is what is so sad about religion. It compels you to do the right thing not because YOU want to but because you want to go to heaven,and want to avoid hell. Sick."

Response:
Tell me Dr. Leakey, where does your definition of good come from? In an atheistic, humanistic world there is no good or bad, it is all up to each individual as to what the actual definition of good is. And what is good according to Bob may be very distasteful to Sue. Who says that giving to the poor is a good thing to do? Where does that come from? The evolutionary process tells us that the weak misfits of this world should be eliminated and only the strong survive. It’s all about "me" and what’s best for "me". That’s what “survival of the fittest” is all about. That’s what Darwin stated in his book “Descent of Man.” So you, Dr. Leaky do not have any basis, from your belief system, to call what you did good. You are using a definition that comes from outside of your belief system. Your logic is flawed to say the least.

The only true definition of good comes from the One who IS good - the One from whom all good emanates. He gives the definition of what “good” truly is and that’s a standard that never changes. And it just a true for Bob as it is for Sue.

When you gave your handful of change and called that “good” you were using a Christian definition, which is affirmed all throughout Scripture.

True Christians do not do good because they are looking for a reward in heaven. They do good because first of all, the Holy Spirit is working in their lives to change them from “non-good” to “good,” to “conform” them to the “image of Christ” who was “good” in the truest sense of the word. Secondly they do “good” because it pleases the One they love the most - their Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Doing “good” does not earn heaven for anyone. A zillion good deeds would not suffice. Only salvation through Christ’s death on the cross can guarantee that.

In your present state, Dr. Leakey, you will go to hell whether you believe it exists or not. I can say that with confidence because I know God and what He says in His Word. Hell is real and is waiting for all those who reject the truth of God’s Word and thumb their nose at Him. Jesus said, “I came to seek and to save that which is lost.” You are one of those lost. And I wish with all my heart it weren't so.

Growing in Him - Joanne

P.S.following except taken from and interview with Doug Wilson at
http://creation.com/answering-the-new-atheists

"Granted, atheists are often moral people. Sam Harris points to this fact and claims that it shows we don’t need religion. He then turns around to criticize the Bible as immoral (for example, making the shallow argument that the Bible condones chattel slavery). But, as Doug points out, Harris isn’t being upfront (or is ignorant) about the source of his ethics: ‘One of the common features of these atheists is a very high level of moral indignation. But given the premises of their worldview, they have no basis for their indignation. If there is no God, and everything is really just atoms banging around, why should it matter which way the atoms bang? Actually, all of these atheists surreptitiously borrow many of the standards of Christianity in order to assail Christian belief.’

They must assume the existence of moral standards (for instance, ‘truth’ is an inherent good), borrowed from Christianity, before they can attack the Christian faith (if truth wasn’t inherently good, why would it matter to Sam Harris that I believe in a God he doesn’t think exists?). ‘The atheists love to bring up “scary” passages from the Old Testament, and Christians often get bogged down trying to defend those passages to the atheist. But what I like to do, as the first step, is ask the sceptic what his basis is for making the moral judgment.’

Naturalism (the philosophy that underpins evolution, namely that matter and energy are all there is) cannot provide ethics; it simply is not capable of providing meaning. This problem runs deep, undercutting even the basis of rationality itself.4 In the atheist’s naturalistic worldview, thoughts and reasoning are just the results of chemical reactions in the brain. ‘A debate and a couple of soda bottles in the front of a room fizzing are just different types of chemical reactions. The atheist cannot put forward, within his own framework, a justification for why reasoning is trustworthy, or even worthwhile. Of course, as a Christian, I believe we can reason as human beings created in the image of God. But the atheist can’t account for reason if there is no God. On naturalistic principles, there’s no explanation for why a debate is more important than the two soda bottles fizzing. So you could say that, by showing up for the debate, the atheist has already conceded.’"

Last Edited on 24-Jun-2009 10:07 PM

Now in a immoral universe there is no such things as good or evil. You must borrow from religion to have that concept. 99% of all humaterian missions to other countries come from a Christian non-profit organization, church or group of people. Where do the morals come from? Does a robot develop his own commands? Must there not be a software engineer who writes the code? Where did humans get the moral commands? There is always a source when it comes to information.

Yes the Bible is not the first book ever written. Yes people did worship other gods. Even Abraham worshipped the gods of Babylon before the real God revealed himself to Abram. Yes other nations had morals and codes of ethics. God was known before Mosaic law to other peoples and nations. At one time everyone knew God, the real God but then people started to change the image of God into, well Paul can say it better than me.

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

----------
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time" - Abraham Lincoln

Last Edited on 25-Jun-2009 6:29 AM

Here's just one of a few scriptures that refer to what I have been trying to tell you.
If you don't receive the Holy Spirit you will stay blind. Read this below...from John 14

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

1) It says those who belong to Christ will receive the spirit.
2) The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him.
3) But we know him
4) He is " in " us ! ! !

If you are going to be a good person, where does your definition of good come from? How do you know what you are doing is good? Where does your standard come from? Someone had to chose and what makes that someone’s definition better than that of a different “someone.” Unless of course you use the definition of good that comes from God. But you don't believe in Him so we are back where we started.

Evolutionary theory is based on natural selection or survival of the fittest. For the fittest to survive they are not going to go against what is natural to them and help an “unfit” creature along. Natural selection does not provide a basis for being good.

Actually, Doug Wilson makes lots of sense, it’s just that you cannot see it. You are the one taking large leaps. “Why is it so unreasonable to think that evolution, along with a larger brain and the ability to reason, is not responsible”? You are really grasping at straws here. Just because a brain is larger does not give it’s owner the ability to reason. Reasoning involves thinking and that is something a larger brain cannot give. Your naturalistic worldview, states that matter and energy made the first life. If matter and energy are all there is, where does ethics come from? Your theory cannot explain it other than to say, “it evolved somehow.”

Your whole scenario of early man is a stretch of the imagination based on a worldview not proven facts. Your story is entertaining, possibly, but nothing more. “They knew that in order to survive they needed each other.” How do you know this? To borrow from Ken Ham, “were you there?” It is just a guess to fit in with your worldview, nothing more.

Moral standards originated with God who gave them to Adam who wrote them down and passed them along. Adam was not a knuckle walking hominid, but an upright walking person with perfect intelligence. Mankind was also instilled, by his maker, with a conscience. Can the survival of the fittest provide that? It’s interesting how you call everyone who does not agree with you stupid or ignorant. But that is the case with humanists who cannot reasonably defend their position. They resort to name-calling to make themselves sound intelligent.

Growing in Him - Joanne

I grew up in a time when there was a murder it was done by a "bad guy." Today, since prayer, Bible reading and the 10 Commandments were removed from the schools and public places there have been killings in schools, workplaces, and public facilities. To the godless person, man's life is worthless.

These are all lies of Satan. He 'n his boys walk the earth seeking whom they may kill, mame, confuse or drive insane. The world we have today man has made, not God, through his decision to forsake God. We Christians sought a better life than what the world was offering, and we found it.

I'm betting if Michael Jackson and Farrah could come back they would do life differently, under God. But once one has died, their soul goes one place or the other: hell or heaven. Then it's too late.

Bill

Last Edited on 26-Jun-2009 12:24 PM

Leakey: "If man was inherently evil then would we be here today? Would we not all have killed each other millions of years ago."

Response: No we would not have killed each other millions of years ago because mankind has only been on the earth for about 6,000 years. By evolutionary philosophy, the fit survive and the weak are eliminated and therefore there will always be the strong around. However, I do not believe this scenario. The only reason mankind has survived is because God has a plan and it hasn’t come to fruition as of yet. It is His staying power that keeps this whole universe on course.

Leakey: "You wont acknowledge that mankind has survived due to his larger brain and ability to reason.How did we figure out how to make fire....was it not from trial and error."

Response: Man was created with a superior brain. He did not have to figure it out by trial and error. Since sin entered the world man’s brain function has declined and the trial and error method became necessary.

Leakey: "Joanne...can we stick to one or two subjects at a time please."
Response: Can’t take the heat? Come on, get those brain cells thinking logically and reasonably.

Growing in Him - Joanne

If you can't relate on one issue how can you proceed to a second?

Wouldn't it be better to try to find one foundational point with which to discuss before throwing the kitchen sink at each other?

There must be at least one reference point from which to communicate.

Just saying...

My humble opinion,
Mary

Bill

I just think you are so cool, Joanne!!!!

Last Edited on 29-Jun-2009 3:35 PM

Then when one gets on here someone rolls the rock over and out comes the anti everything. Oooooh come Lord, please, PLEASE come soon. I'm so SICK of this world!

Was your last question rhetorical? Just wondering where you're coming from on this one.

----------
Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

I keep watching that nut in Iran, and our blessed Jewish brothers and sisters. Israel sits back and minds its own business and the godless dopes keep tossing things at 'em and "spitting" at them. What fools! All they have to do is read Ezekiel 37-39 and sit back and shut up, but well for us they don't

Yeah, I get real sick and tired of this world many days. My joy, however, is worshipping, serving and witnessing for my Lord. Outside of that--oh, I would hate to leave my precious wife by croaking, but I know we will go up together in the Rapture--I wouldn't mind checking out of this screwy, messed up world. I get tired of attempting to convence such guys like Dr. Leakey, Beelzebub, Lucky 'n the whole hell-bound crew! But I have to ...

A tired, huring brother

Bill

Last Edited on 30-Jun-2009 4:25 PM

Last Edited on 1-Jul-2009 1:09 AM

Have you looked at the visible layers and layers of rock at Mt St Helens, as addressed before, and you and I were living then. Oh but then I forgot you chose not to read into RAD any farther..sorry
----------
Walking in Faith

April

Some have pointed back to that column and scoffed: "Where is He?" they ask. God's time is His own. All I can say is, the fig tree has ripened [Israel is back in its land after losing it in 70 A.D., as Christ said they would.] and the land is filling with Jews returning from around the world, just as God said they would.

The Jews lost their country when Jesus said they would; they got it back in one day on May 14, 1948 as He said they would; and he will return just as He said He will. And it's not far off.

Science is science and the Bible is God's. Where do the scientists think they got the material they are working with?

Bill

"Oh, yeah?" says God. "I can make humans from dirt."

"So can I," the anti-God person said.

God reached down, took some dirt and made a man. The non-believer reached down to grab some dirt.

"Aw, aw, aw," God said. "Make your own dirt."

Science can only go so far. As for me, they have gone WAY too far. They think they can even make the dirt.

Bill

Please be more observant.Joanne did not say the earth is 6,000 years old. Rather, she said man has been on the earth for 6,000 years, at least approximately. This is consistent with recorded history. The actual age of the earth is subject to conjecture. The Bibical account is explicit. However, there is room for debate on this. Even in Christian circles there does not seem to be a definative answer.

Tyler

Last Edited on 3-Jul-2009 5:45 PM

----------
Walking in Faith

April

Chucky <*))><

the problem with the geologic time table is that it does not account for when you have fossilized trees appearing in the upright position through many many layers that are supposedly millions of years old, such as in these pictures:

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/tracks-petrified-tree.jpg

http://www.creationism.org/books/TaylorInMindsMen/TaylorIMMdtPolystrateFossilTreeM.jpg

http://www.prophecyandtruth.com/images/petrified_tree_thru_rock_strata2.JPG

The millions of years are just a figment of some disillusionned man in the 1800' called Darwin.

No matter how you look at it, evolutionnists have failed to convince those whose intelligence question things and so we do in reading the Bible by applying what is written in Acts 17:11 which reads like this:

Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

If you look closely at what is written in the Scriptures, it is possible to count 6000 years of human history on the earth. Is the earth older than 6000 years? I would say no because God created the earth, beasts and man in 6 days, rested on the seventh "YOM" which still means a period of 24 hours today, and that was 6 000 years ago.

bEST

Serge

Last Edited on 17-Jul-2009 11:26 AM