A diff perspective that maybe some of you have never read. I read it for the first time today and it presented a diff perspective to "Christian Patriotism" in the USA. Something to think about, I guess.

Would Paul Answer the Call to Christian Patriotism?
Dinsmore, Mark
April 2, 2009

A number of respected Christian columnists and pastors across our nation are rightly sounding an alarm at the thickening shroud of global governance descending upon our nation. With the presidentially promised "change" now being delivered, the spectre of a militarized one-world spirituality is darkening the horizon of earth under the guise of "hope" and "peace."

I understand—and share—the righteous anger over the sorry state of the church and its lackadaisical response to the evils of our time. Serious students of God's Word, however, have been long alerted to these signs: "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come..." (1 Tim 4:1; see also 2 Tim 4:3-4). Though we take some comfort that our Lord could return at any time for His Bride, it appears that even those whose blessed hope is in a pre-tribulation rapture should take heed and prepare for precipitous times ahead (1 Pt 4:12-16).

In light of increasing daily distress over our nation's economic unraveling and corporate "bailout," a number of states are introducing legislation to declare their sovereignty and withdraw from this mess, and some patriots have even called for a 2009 Continental Congress to "establish practicable strategies the People can take, en masse, to peacefully reclaim Liberty and restore Constitutional Order." Indeed, that these are "perilous times" only confirms the prophetic import of increasing global "birth pangs."

Many well-written books and DVDs document how our nation, and evangelicalism, came to this point, but this lament is not my chief concern, nor is it in suggesting a roadmap for political action. Rather, it is to articulate and apply a biblical response to the foreboding future tyranny that is prophesied (and proceeding) to unite the world in a Babel-like rebellion under Antichrist. Surprisingly, the cause and cure of our nation's decline is a controversial subject even among conservative Christians. As one columnist whom I respect recently wrote, "A real Christian patriot would never allow his country to be taken over by a gaggle of elitist goons bent on stealing his liberties...."

"Christian patriot." These two words are inextricably linked in the minds of most Americans who grew up with any kind of serious education regarding the nature of our Constitutional Republic and the faith of our Founding Fathers. The ideals of a "Christian Patriot" are indeed wonderful—to live in a nation that exalts our Creator and whose government is firmly rooted in God's Word.

But is this our earthly hope and promise, prior to Christ's return? And, is this the mission to which the church is called—to establish "one nation, under God, indivisible...?" Is this the example of our spiritual forefathers?

Consider Daniel. Consider Joseph. These courageous men (both types of Christ, among many), were subjected to all manner of trials and temptation, and yet they did not resist the enemy with force. Still, God spared them. They both rose to prominence in pagan cultures that literally worshiped demon-gods—Satan himself—in various manifestations, but did either Daniel or Joseph attempt to overthrow these empires by political persuasion? Did they stir up the faithful to stage a protest or ignite a revolution?

"That's the Old Testament!" some might protest. Then what of Paul? What of Peter? Did these equally courageous New Testament saints resist their captors with force? Did these powerful apostles of Christ start a political party to declare their independence from the pagan world in which they preached? To a man, no. All of Christ's disciples except John were martyred—and not for their "inalienable rights" to live in a country that worshiped God nor for their right to "keep and bear arms."

We have enjoyed (and oft taken for granted) the liberties afforded us at the expense of those who bled and died for our gain. This is a testament to their courage, faith, and God's grace—but does this mean that the American Revolution is a biblical example and pattern of behavior for us to follow? To my own initial confusion and dismay (as it contradicts years of conservative Christian-heritage instruction) there is not a single example in Scripture of "armed revolution" of any kind as a pattern for the church.

Remember, it is the Lord who raises up kings (both just and unjust) and allows them to dictate the rules of the land in order to bring about His will for His people (Ps 75:7; Dan 2:21; Prov 21:1); and, as we have seen in the example of Israel, "judgment must begin at the house of God" (1 Pt 4:17).

Grievously, America is ripe for judgment...and so is the church. Though it is difficult for us to "count it all joy" (James 1:2-4), the persecution and trials that are coming upon us are for the purification of God's remnant. As such, a true soldier of Christ seeks to "understand the times" (1 Chr 12:32) and prepare his household, his church, and his community—not for a revolution of might but one of heart and mind.

In fact, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world... [else] would my servants fight" (Jn 18:36). Do not misunderstand—I am not a pacifist by strict definition. I support the Second Amendment; I'm teaching all three of my sons how to be responsible marksmen, whether for food provision or self- and family defense. But here's the difference: the right to "keep and bear arms" was not granted to us by God. If (when) our government knocks on my door and demands my weapons under threat of violence or imprisonment, would it be a biblical response to resist or "open fire!"?

Thousands of neo-Patriots cheered, as did I, when former NRA president and "Moses" actor Charleton Heston declared that the only way he would surrender his weapons is when the enemy (our own government) "pried them from [his] cold, dead, hands." But through study, prayer, and reflection, I've come to the conviction that it would be foolish to give my life for this "right" given to me by man. Though reluctantly and in the flesh, I pray that I will "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's" (Mk 12:17; Rom 13:1-7). If necessary, I'll defend my family with my life without a rifle, but we must trust in God's ability to deliver us from that "temptation," or trial, when it comes (Ps 22:4; James 1:2-4).

My fear today is that if Christians answer a "call to arms" to fight whatever totalitarian regime is being plotted (in preparation for Antichrist), then godly men will be imprisoned or die, leaving women and children behind to be ravaged both physically and spiritually. Going down in a "blaze of glory" like the Revolutionary "heroes" sounds good to our own flesh, but if we are dead men, how can we minister the gospel under whatever pagan ruler or communist culture rises to replace our Constitutional Republic?

We are in a spiritual battle, but we must choose on which hill we are willing to die. Dying for Nationalistic Pride or even for our "Rights" is not the same as dying for the cause of Christ. Far better for godly men to survive in a pagan nation and submit to rule of law (which God ordains) and to subsist by His Word—unless (or until) we are asked to bow down and worship a false god. Such an affront would still not be cause to take up arms. In the life-and-death trial of the fiery furnace, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah did not go into the flames as "National Patriots," willing to die for their "Bill of Rights," nor did they offer any physical resistance to their captors. Like Christ's, theirs was a peaceful obedience and demonstration of submission to God, who alone is able to save (Dan 3:17-18; James 4:12; Heb 7:25).

Does this mean, as some brethren suggest, that I am weak, unfaithful, or lazy? Does it mean that I am consigned to our nation's "fate"? No! On the contrary, I am reminded that "we wrestle not against flesh and blood," which causes me to re-focus God's precious resources of time and energy on eternal things—not on fulfilling the "American Dream" for myself and my posterity, nor on establishing God's "kingdom now." Rather, we must earnestly set about "redeeming the time" (Eph 5:16) with renewed fervor to preach the gospel and make disciples—not for an earthly hope of heaven here, but with an eye on his kingdom to come (Christ's eternal kingdom). Scripture is clear that this present terrestrial globe "shall melt with fervent heat...and the works that are therein shall be burned up" (2 Pt 3:10). That includes every church building, every mansion, every monument, every false god, and every political power structure built or imagined by mankind—whether Democrat or Republican, Communist or "Christian."

Scripture tells us that "peace on earth, goodwill to men" (Lk 2:14) cannot come until Christ rules and reigns on earth. As Christians, we should protect and defend human life wherever we are. We should never deny Christ in order to save our lives, but to throw ourselves in front of an advancing tank that threatens our "Constitutional" liberties would only crush and silence our voice for God, and would do nothing for the cause of Christ.

Even John Adams acknowledged that it is fruitless to force "biblical government" upon an "immoral people," hell-bent on conspiracy against their Creator. In spite of the courageous speeches and admirable acts of our Revolutionary heroes like Paul Revere, was theirs a biblical response? Or, is the Apostle Paul our model of Christ, when he said, "Therefore I endure [suffer] all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim 2:10).

These are difficult issues that one must prayerfully work through. May our Lord continue to sharpen us all for His glory and His purpose, "having done all, to stand" (Eph 6:13) and, as He commanded, "Occupy till I come" (Lk 19:13)—doing so not in a passive state but in a state of action for the gospel and cause of Christ. "He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev 22:20).

http://www.thebereancall.org/node/7641

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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time" - Abraham Lincoln

We as Christians are told to love our enemy. Do good to those who persecute us.
We as Christians have no rights as Jesus gave away all of His.
We as Christians are as the apostles led to the persecutions of this world.
Do we put our country above our Lord's teachings?
Who is our first Love?

Very timely article for the western world.

No prayer in schools. No reading the Bible in schools. No Ten Commandments in public places. Replacement: drugs, sex, alcohol, shootings, stabbings and anything else one can think up that's against God's laws.

We allowed abortion to become law. Killing babies is law in a God-given country?! I tell you, we "Christians" sit back on our soft rears and say, "Someone needs to do something about that." Well, "they" did. The Godless liberals moved from killing babies in the womb to killing them as they are born. WAKE UP! Debate another time! [Perhaps it is too late.]

Homosexuals are called "gay." When I was a kid gay ment to be happy. I know many homosexuals and they are only happy for a season, when they are doing their unnatural, fornicative activities. The "gays" living next to me smoke drugs, drink heavily, and disrupt the neighborhood. That's being a good citizen?! Rights? To do what? Pervert God's laws? You bet!

The Lord on High said: "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" (Matt. 24:38, NKJV). Perhaps it is too late.

Love our enemies, yes, but fight those who would lead us to destruction. I have no problem witnessing to a gay or atheist, but when they want their perverted way and not God's, there is where we will part company.

The U.S. and Canada have given way to the liberal left, the Godless perversion factors because we interpret that Christ would not want us to fight for Godly rights? Christ is our Lord, Master, High Priest,
Savior, King and Commandar. When he rides out of heaven after the anitchrist, and what's left of the world powers (mainly China), he won't be Whistling Dixie or saying, "now, now, Satan."

The United States was founded by godly, brave men and women who held the Bible high and sought the Lord. They must be rolling over in their graves right now. Men like Charles and John Westley, would they be proud of all the little white churches once scattered across this county shouting the praises of Christ? They must be weeping in heaven!

Canada and America: the "little lions."

Bill

When a young man, churches were full Sunday and any time something was going on there. Every morning over the sound system the Bible was read before classes began. A prayer was said by a student. The Ten Commandments were posted on our wall in bronze like they really, really meant something. Surveys I read in the newspaper at about 15 said 93 percent of the country believed in God. Today they don't even know who He is!

I pledged to God before I even knew Christ that I would fight anyone attempting to take away Biblical rules. I always had a heart for God. After I came to Christ, the country was on its way to what I now call "our redemption." I battled for the Lord for 17 years weekly in a secular newspaper. Today I can't even get a "Biblical" opinion piece published.

Oh, I have to recend that a bit. Recently a man complained about a local billboard containing a picture of Christ (or what He is thought to have looked like, anyway) saying that "He is the only way to God." A motorist took offence to that, saying there are "100 ways to God, and Christianity is not the only way."

Needless to say, I rebuked his "opinion" with the Word of God. I must say, the paper published it! I was rather shocked.

Sorry to get on the soapbox, but giving up country, God and freedom puts a bad taste in my mouth.

Bill

I think we are called to be light. I think we are called to be on fire for our Lord Jesus and the precepts for our US and the Christian/Judeo foundation our forefathers laid down for us! Onward Christian Soldiers! We should not be lukewarm for our foundational teachings and for our nation.

Let us look at the horrible case against the Christians in Germany and not repeat their mistake!

Dear Laura I disagree with you my friend. Bill, I agree with you. We must like Paul, fight the good fight and pray, partner with the Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil in our nation.

King David prayed before every battle and then he fought the fight.

We must fight the good fight with every spiritual weapon listed by Paul in the NT.

I say we live in a battlefield and we must not be lukewarm!

Fighting with the Word of God!
Mary

(Laura, what are you refering to that Christ gave up? A humble question from your sister.)

At the time our Lord walked the earth in the flesh he gave up all his heavenly majesty and Godly power.

Remember all those who he walked among who wanted the Romans destroyed? He specifically told us that His Kingdom was not of this world. Jesus could have just put up His hand and the yolk of Roman bondage would have been taken from the Jews.

The Bible is a book of prophesy and we know how the world, as we know it, will end.

In the last days....is written in all the NT books of the Bible. Our war is spiritual. This is our battle field.

Too often we act like God is not in control.

If we take care of or pray for our faith, family, friends, God will take care of the rest. We are the light not only to the world but where God put us in the world. It may seem a small thing to us but it is a big place to God.

" But through study, prayer, and reflection, I've come to the conviction that it would be foolish to give my life for this "right" given to me by man. Though reluctantly and in the flesh, I pray that I will "render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's" (Mk 12:17; Rom 13:1-7). If necessary, I'll defend my family with my life without a rifle, but we must trust in God's ability to deliver us from that "temptation," or trial, when it comes (Ps 22:4; James 1:2-4).

http://www.thebereancall.org/node/7641

Last Edited on Jun 22, 2009 3:08 AM

Your points are very well made and very well accepted. I agree with what you stated above about Jesus and the loving response of our Lord Jesus Christ to empty himself and be the King of our hearts and not necessarily our nation.

Please conside my points now.

I listened to a discussion awhile back between a liberal, who believes that the world should not have nations and should be a "brotherhood of man", and a Jew. Ok, most peace loving people would say everyone coming together sounds pretty good. Then the Jew spoke and stated that this nationless, brotherhood of man, will never happen because of how everything God does centers around the nation of Israel. This brings this topic into a different light. (Until I heard this discussion, I had never thought of this.) Rod teaches also that as we watch for the "end times signs", they all revolve around the nation of Israel.

I agree with you that Christ taught us and brought believers into a new, holy nation. 1 Pet 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation...

But also consider these scriptures:

Gen 12:2 And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing.

Ps 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage.

Prov. 14:34 Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.

Matt 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

God still speaks of nations even into Rev. 21.

I am not advocating violence. I think we should fight, as you stated, the spiritual warfare with prayer and the Word of God.

I also think that many nations today have taken a passive approach to their "faith" and that Islam has taken an agressive approach and is strangling many nations now including England, Spain and France. Nations we would never thought would loose their identities as primarily Christian nations.

God is indeed sovereighn but Satan is the ruler of this world:

1 John 4:19 We know we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one.

Satan's "will" cannot be denied.

2 Tim 2:25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, 26 and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

Yours in Christ,
Mary

Last Edited on Jun 23, 2009 5:58 AM

Bill

I would have loved to have a two day yap on the Bible with you and your wife. I'm sure it would be an awesome and encouraging time in the Lord! Would love to hear your angel encounter again, in person.

Please don't take it personally that I didn't look you up. I always had children in tow and had much to do with widowed mother. My mom is alone and doesn't live in the real world. Trips to see her are very depressing. We try to do what we can for her while we are there.

Perhaps I could ask you to remember her in your prays today.

God Bless,
Mary

It's a shame what we humans put ourselves into because of sin, huh? Whose kids, yours? Didn't take it personally ... really. Just thought it would be nice to see you in person.

Bill

Last Edited on Jun 25, 2009 11:25 AM

We have two daughters, Angela, 19 & Trinity,7.

Sorry about your father. My father almost went in the same VA home but The Good Lord had mercy on him and took him home, about the same time as your mother, 5 years ago. He is buried in Osceola Mills.

I will pray God's love and mercy for your father.

It would be my pleasure to someday meet you and your wife.

God Bless,
Mary