Jesus Christ is the climax of God’s revelation and God fully expressed Himself in and through His Son. Christ said of Himself and the Father “We are One”(John 17:22) and we can conclude that when Jesus spoke it was also the Father speaking. God did speak audibly in the Old Testament and audibly through His Son. Does He still speak audibly today?

I think Jude 4 gives the answer to that.
“I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.”

The faith that Jude is speaking of constitutes the Christian faith, the faith of the gospel which is God’s objective truth. “Once for all” is the Greek word “hapax” and refers to something that is accomplished or completed on time, with lasting results. It does not need repetition. Therefore through the work of the Holy Spirit, God revealed the Christian faith to the apostles and others in the first century. Their New Testament writings, in conjunction with the Old Testament Scriptures, make up all the truth that believers need for life and godliness. 2 Peter 1:3 - “as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue.”

God revealed the truths of the faith with finality and certainty, and that revelation is now finished and complete. Any person or system that declares they have received a new revelation from God must be disregarded as false for Rev. 22:18-19 declares “For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

Does God still speak to us today? He speaks to us through His Word but He is no longer adding new revelation to that Word. It is therefore very important for the believer to compare any ideas or “leading” that he thinks he may have from the Spirit, with the Scripture. Unless it can be confirmed by Scriptural principle, what seems to be the voice of God may be coming from another source and that can be dangerous.

Does God impress His children with certain ideas? Yes, the Spirit can direct our thoughts in one way or another. However, as a friend of mine says “there is no functional manifestation of that in the human body.” In other words, the believer cannot know when he is getting an impression by the Holy Spirit or whether the idea comes from another spirit or even their own mind. If the impression comes from God it will line up with His Word. If it doesn’t, then the believer needs to cast it aside, no matter how becoming it may be.

Personally, I think that to say “God told me” is also another way to take His name in vain. I mean, who can argue with God? If I tell you something was told to me by God, who are you to argue with Him? But if I cannot prove that it really was God that told me that certain thing, then is that not using His name carelessly and irreverently? Something I may be doing, whether I realize it or not, just to add validation to my thoughts and desires? Just a thought.

Growing in Him - Joanne

To sum it up, the doctrine of the Trinity is of human origin; Jesus is just the Son of God but He is not God; the Holy Spirit binds the two together in love; God did not become a Father until the Word (Son) came to be; Jesus did not become the Lord Christ until after His resurrection.

Daniel, you also believe that the Holy Spirit/God gave you this interpretation as evidenced by the following:
1. “as stated by me in other posts, it was revealed to me by GOD'S Holy Spirit that this Doctrine can and does cause some people to develop Double Minded thinking”
2. “ in Rev. 2:15 , a "Doctrine of the Nicolaitans " is talked/Warned against, as recorded for US and the Peoples of our Bro. John's to-days? do you, peoples of our todays, yes you ROD as well, have an opinion on the simple fact that the Trinity Doctrine is/or is not this "Doctrine - IT was revealed to me that this is.”
3. “while i have been shown clearly…”
4. “i have been following for many years after experiencing a " road to Damascus/ Jacobs struggle in the Night , type event, and was left with simple message "do-not join". When i asked what do i do next, for your word says to join together? the answer was follow the Lord's Prayer--that was thirty years ago.”
4. “thank you for the question. ____simple answer, revelation from GOD, through his Holy Spirit. ____verified/tested, from bible and other Sources over past eight months. ____humbly i ask, please understand when i say test, i do not doubt the Source of this and other revelations which i have received over the years…”
5. “near the time, now years ago, when this vision was revealed to me”
6. “for it is my humble truth that i was moved by GOD'S Holy Spirit of LOVE"

I have thought long and hard in how to respond to you and even considered not saying anything. However, there are some serious questions to be asked and points to be made so here goes:

With reference to my first post on this topic, I ask you again, how do you know that what you think is the Holy Spirit’s leading, really is? You say you do not doubt the source of this and other revelations that you have received over the years. You even mention other sources but how reliable are they? What point-of-view glasses are those sources and you yourself using? I am especially referring to the revelation you say God gave you regarding the Trinity.

As well you often say things like "for it is my humble truth that i was moved by God's Holy Spirit of love." Only if your revelation lines up with the truth of Scripture can you be sure that the leading is from God or the Holy Spirit, as God no longer adds new things to His Word - it is “the faith that was once for all delivered…”

A perfect example of this: The pastor at a church I once went to told the congregation that God told him that the church should grow to 2,000 people. My questions to Him would be, how do you know it was God speaking to you and not your own desires and does that revelation line up with Scripture? If it was God speaking; then that revelation should actually be added to the Bible because it comes from God, it is His Word and should be there to benefit everyone. But then that would go against the preceding Scriptures that I have used, in Hebrews, Peter, Jude and Revelation.

Over many posts, others have given you a multitude of verses that support the doctrine of the Trinity. Are you now telling us that originally God did not clearly express Himself in His Word or that He perhaps changed His mind? that He has now given you the true meaning of the concept? If you are, then there is a serious problem between what you say the Spirit told you and what we actually read in the Scripture.

You see, I do not know that it was the Holy Spirit that told you these things, and you have no way to prove it. The only thing that I can do is compare what you say to the Word. Honestly, how do I know that just maybe you are making this all up? I just don’t know and it is your word against what I read in The Word and I have to believe the latter. Scripture does not contradict itself and God has preserved it over thousands of years so that His message remains the same to all people for all time. If that is not so then how can we believe anything found in the Bible to be true?

1 John 5:7 tells us “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word (Son), and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One.” It is right there “these three are One.” I don’t know how God could have stated it any clearer than that. Jesus Himself stated in John 17:20-22 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one.”

I am not going to go into all of the Biblical supports for the Trinity - many have already done so. But let’s look at a little history here. The Trinity is not explicitly taught in Scripture. When theologians studied the concept however, they put together complementary themes and took from biblical teachings to express the understanding that we have today. The formulation of the doctrine has had a long and complex history but when systematic theology is applied we find a biblical basis for that doctrine. By the way, systematic theology is that which “draws upon the whole of the Bible. Rather than utilizing individual texts in isolation from one another, it attempts to relate the various portions to one another, to coalesce the varied teachings into some type of harmonious or coherent whole.” (pg. 21, Christian Theology, Erickson; text book used by my daughter in seminary when working on her Master’s degree.)

The religion of the ancient Hebrews was rigorously monotheistic and the concept of “oneness” was expressly stated in the “shema” of
Deuteronomy 6 “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One.” All throughout the Old Testament we find the teaching of the oneness of God. The people then did not grasp the full concept of a trinity in this oneness as it is something that was built upon over time, but the concept of a unique deity was to come first in their lives and laid the basis for what was to follow.

In the New Testament we find Paul stating in Philippians 2:5-6 “Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God.” When zeroing in on the word “form” we find that in the Greek it denotes the genuine nature of a thing. “For Paul, an orthodox Jew trained in the rabbinic teaching of strict Judaism, this is an astonishing statement. Reflecting the faith of the early church, it suggests a deep commitment to the full deity of Christ.” (Pg 325, Christian Theology, Erickson).

And then when looking at Christ Himself we find that He affirmed His own deity. One instance occurs when Thomas addressed Jesus as “my Lord and my God” (John 20:28), Jesus did not deny this statement or try to set Thomas straight. This concept of the deity of Christ did not become clear until He actually accomplished His mission on earth.

Moving on, during the first two centuries after the death of Christ, there was much going on in the church. There was evangelism, churches being established and letters being written to encourage, teach and correct false theology. It took time for even all the letters to be collected together. The Apostles and church leaders were wrestling with the theological and philosophical issues of many topics including what we now term the doctrine of the Trinity, but such things took time.

Such thinkers as Justin and Tatian stressed the unity of essence between the Word and the Father. Tertullian viewed there being three manifestations of the one God, being numerically distinct, but being of a single indivisible power. There were various concepts including the economic view of the trinity, dynamic monarchianism and moralistic monarchianism. The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity was set out in a series of debates and councils which were prompted by the controversies of the different movements of the time. At the Council of Constantinople in A.D. 381 there emerged a definite statement in which the church made explicit the beliefs which had been held.

Athanasius expressed the view most clearly which was written in an creed named after him, part of which states “We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being. For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another. But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty…”

So yes the doctrine of the Trinity was set out by man, but many men prayed, studied Scripture and wrestled with the concepts over a long period of time. And they used proper exegesis of Scripture to come to their conclusions. Their ideas were not something that were just pulled out of thin air. The doctrine they developed has a very sound basis in Scripture.

Now I do not say this lightly Daniel, but considering everything that you have said regarding the Trinity, and from my own study of the topic, I have to conclude that your ideas do not line up with the teaching of the Word and also that your revelations come from a source that is not divine. God will not contradict His Word and He will not give you information that is in addition to what He has already revealed to us in Scripture.

He has given believers the ability to formulate doctrine based on His Word and though many concepts may not be one hundred percent clear in our minds, we still can be assured that His truth has been preserved.

Growing in Him - Joanne

I love the coherence with which you see history and the Word and combine them to have a concise and clear fashion of making it all easy for us to learn and understand, i love the wisdom that the Lord gives you!

Brother Serge

Please know that the Lord is one.

In Revelation we find the three persons of God together:

Rev. 4...Grace to you and peace from HIM WHO IS AND WHO WAS AND WHO IS TO COME, AND FROM THE SEVEN SPIRITS WHO ARE BEFORE HIS THRONE, 5 AND FROM JESUS CHRIST THE FAITHFUL WITNESS, THE FIST-BORN OF THE DEAD, AND THE RULER OF KING ON EARTH.

The Godhead, the Holy Trinity together.

God Bless,
Mary

Hannah123aka Audrey

As I have pointed out to a boring point, when I gave up that weekly newspaper Bible column I heard the Holy Ghost's voice very plainly. I just didn't listen!

When I was called to do the column it was the same thing: I heard and recognized the voice. When I was called to His service, I heard but again disobeyed. Has the Holy Spirit quit speaking to me? Not at all.

Example: My wife and I were greeters at our church. We took the assignment when the Holy Spirit spoke to both my wife and I.

We needed to added people to the staff and prayed about it. My wife said the Holy Spirit told her of a person in our congregation, and I disagreed about that person. However, I said I would pray about it. I did and the Holy Spirit assured me this person was the one.

Long and short of it is, they were the exact person we needed. Following some training, 10 years later that person is still a greeter.

That's how one knows to attend Bible school and not a secular university. That's how an individual knows for certain God wants them to be a pastor, missionary, evangelists, etc., etc. And the Lord can change your direction at any time, too.

Of my many regrets in life, not following that calling haunts me daily, as well as giving up that column. I asked the Holy Spirit to send someone to take over that column. He sent someone steeped in the Bible and the Holy Ghost, but they were only a wannabe writer. A year and a half later she took over the column. I had to teach her writing. That was 15 or more years ago now.

Who was it that spoke to the disciples, to Paul? The Holy Spirit. Yeah, He talks to you ... if you want to listen to Him.

In Christ,
Bill

I agree that we do not get anything to add or take from the Scriptures. It's there. That's it.

However, Jesus said he was sending the Holy Spirit to guide us, to convict us, to sooth us, to teach us love, to be there for us. And He is.

In My Lord,
Bill

Tyler

1 Jo 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

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"You're supposed to look at the sun and notice it but then look to the side, we're not worshiping the sun. We're worshiping its creator." Ari

Last Edited on Apr 17, 2009 1:01 AM

Response: No celebrating those days does not add to Scripture. Adding to Scripture would be like saying "God told me to celebrate Easter and Christmas and therefore it is something all Christians should do."

Joanne

Some denomination preachers have told me they considered themselves "called" because preaching "seemed like the thing to do, and everytime they read a scripture they thought of preaching." This isn't "hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit." This is doing something because you think you should, not because of a calling. That's a brain thing, not a heart thing.

Most Christian have never heard the voice of the Holy Spirit because they never believed He speaks to them. One must be filled with the Holy Spirit and fast. And I'm not saying that everyone hears this. it's one's attitude. If God wants your attention, He'll get it. Saul found that out the heard way.

Bill

2. God rarely gives revelations anymore He speaks to us by His word. WE are to test the spirits to make sure things are from God Himself, and not something thought up by man.

3. ANYONE who does not believe that Jesus Christ is God is NOT A CHRISTIAN. Jesus Christ Himself said that I and the Father are one. I don't know about you, but that settles the arguement of Jesus being God for me. Any arguement about Jesus not being God is settled by that ONE statement by Jesus Himself,and if you don't believe it then I truthfully do not believe you are saved, because you are calling Jesus a Lier.
Watch yourself on that one Daniel.

4. The Word TRINITY, and the Word RAPTURE are two words that are not in the Bible, but they are man invented words that discribe Biblical Truths.

5. Joanne...your writtings were wonderful, and I mean that.

6. One last thing....If I did not KNOW FOR SURE that Jesus Christ was the ONE and ONLY Son of God...I would not follow Him.
Daniel it is foolish for you to follow Jesus if you do not believe He is Gods One and Only Son.
How can a mear man give you Salvation, or even die so you can have it?
Jesus Christ is the ONE and ONLY SON Of The Living God. If God impregnated Mary then Jesus Christ has God's Spiritual Blood as well as His Human Blood flowing through Him. Jesus Christ is God.

Jesus Bless!
Chucky <*))><

Last Edited on Apr 20, 2009 10:11 AM

Your brother in Him,
Bill

I must agree with you Bill and you Chucky, we got to remember that THE LORD is sovereign and if He is pleased with your walk and with your faithfulness in small things, that He can choose to give you a higher calling and tell you personally to prepare for it!

The Lord spoke to me a couple of times, i clearly knew it was Him although i didn`t hear something with my ears, it was rather a clear message spoken through the heart, one of them was that i was tyo sell our trailer because He said to me that He had a bigger house for me, my life started turning around from that point, i am thankful to the Lord for His gentleness and for His Faithfulness and for His patience towards me, the Lord is really Good all the time!

Serge

I have to apologize for my words...I never read your really good posts, I just
assumed God was speaking to you...I'm sorry joanne....Force

That's what I was hoping to see !

A child of God could have humbled themself, swallowed his pride and admitted
being wrong...But I don't know his heart...only God does

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Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

HOW MUCH PLAINER DO YOU WANT IT DANIEL.
THAT SURE SETTLES ANY ARGUEMENT WITH ME.

You can rant and rave all day as far as I am concerned about Jesus being the Son of God, but not being God, but that statement is in the Bible and if you do not believe it Daniel than you are NOT MY BROTHER IN CHRIST, because your not a BELIEVER...You are not saved and you are calling my SAVIOR a LIER.

I can't say Jesus Bless you either,
Chucky <*))><

That is a scary indictment of those that do not believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh!!

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Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

When I told the Lord I'd use the talents He gave me for His service, it didn't take long for Him to "give me orders." I knew the voice. And what I was to do was biblical and for Him.

I agree that there are many "religions" today--Islam, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc., etc.--who all "heard from God." Well, God doesn't tell anyone to set something else up He has not established. Christ established the Church with his select crew, and we don't need anything else. What "voices" these other dudes heard I hesitate to name.

When the Holy Spirit speaks to you, you should know that soft, sweet voice. He won't lead you down a non-biblical path, either.

In the Lord,
Bill

Serge

How could Jesus say that if He was not God??? I submit that he could not. So Jesus IS GOD!!
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Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

Last Edited on Apr 27, 2009 8:29 AM

Joanne

Just as a point of reference the entire first chapter of the Book of Genesis in the Hebrew, God is written in the plural Elohim. Now the rabbis state that is just the way the Hebrews did it to introduce YHWH, but many scholars believe that is because of the Godhead, three in one.

Just tossing in my two cents!
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

JF

In Genesis chapter 1, Elohiym being the plural of Eloah was meant for us to read that there was plurality of persons within singularity of the Godhead, as also implied by Genesis 1:26. The tetragram YHWH was later made known by God as His eternal Name.

Serge

Last Edited on Oct 26, 2009 8:41 AM

In the Aramaic, there is a distinction made in "persons". We recognize easliy "you", singular, and "you", plural. "El" is God Singular, "Eloyhim" is God in three persons, but ""Eloi is God in two persons. The only word we have in English like this is "both".

So Jesus, on the Cross, is crying out to the Father and the Holy Spirit, because He cannot call out to Himself. Fascinating aspect of the Trinity.

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Loving the LORD more every day

Hannah123aka Audrey

Last Edited on Oct 30, 2009 3:21 PM

Joanne

Your brother Serge

Bro. Bill

Last Edited on Nov 1, 2009 3:09 AM

We get down to a decision of faith. When I started at the Messianic Fellowship the first meeting I had I was bombarded with everything under the sun to show me that the trinity did not exist. The 15 people that were there other than myself just beat me up about the trinity. While I was sitting there I felt the LORD say to my heart just listen, because you know the truth in your heart and go with what you know.

You can spout scripture all day long but there is just as much scripture that can be interpreted in the other direction. It comes down to believing, and knowing in your heart of hearts what is the truth.

Jonzy I believe in the trinity simply because I feel the LORD has given me that as truth. If you feel that there is enough evidence and your heart tells you something different the God bless you man. You go with what your heart tells you!
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

Last Edited on Nov 6, 2009 11:13 AM

Jesus is God, there is no way around it and no compromise to be made there either for there is too much cool aid to drink out there, we have been fighting Jonzy's false doctrines for over 3 years now and we will not relent, we will love him but we won't accept false doctrines especially because we love him.

At a certain point in our walk, we all have to realize that the Scriptures must interpret Scriptures and by exagesis, read out what the Scriptures are telling us and if the Scriptures hint that the Holy God that we serve is Triune and His Name is Jesus Christ then that is what the Bible teaches and thus, we must accept it as ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

bEST

Serge

Last Edited on Nov 6, 2009 11:29 AM

bill

Hannah123aka Audrey

In Him 24/7,
bill

They believe that Jesus was the once for all sacrifice, but they do not believe He is God. In the Torah and the Talmud there is a section pertaining to Adam needing to make a sacrifice to atone for his sin of disobedience. God raised up a perfect sacrifice of a bull right out of the ground just as Adam was raised up nothing else would do.

They believe that Jesus (Yeshua) was raised up much like the bull of Adam's to be a perfect sacrifice that is why they call Yeshua the second Adam. Long and complicated but if you have an open mind you can see why people look in a different direction. Do I agree with that direction? No I don't but I see why they think the way they do. And we must keep an open mind and be teachable especially now in these end days. Many things will come to light that were hidden before and if we aren't willing to look how can we approach those that aren't seeing.
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All Glory goes to God Father, Son, & Holy Spirit,

Ariel ben Nissi

Jesus did not need to repent. He allowed it. There is a difference.

Mat 3:14 And John [tried to] prevent Him, saying, "I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?"

Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered and said to him, "Permit [it to be so] now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed Him...
to baptize Him...

I feel this Scripture paints a different picture than your words do.

wliJ

bill