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Is The Believer's Security Conditional?
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765 posts
Jan 11, 2010
11:24 AM
Rich, this is from your post 2010

"I challenge you to read the Gospels in this order MArk, Matthew, Luke, and John. I challenge you to read only the Gospels nothing written by Apostle Paul.
Nothing written by any outside writer or commentator. Nothing from Missler, Piper, MacArthur, Levitt, the Berean Brothers, Hembree, no-one just the Word of God."

Now, after reading this, I find myself thinking you are all over the place ....

Should you be doing the same if you challenge anyone else? In Acts it tells us that the Holy Spirit is our teacher, so should you have another teacher for Bible study?

We might all be on a different page but we're reading the same Word or Book of God.
I admit that I need to read each of the Books and letters with the concordance when I'm studying. This is where I find all of the words, like grace, as has been used in other Scripture. Plus, I then have all of the Hebrew and Greek definitions. Then, I have some of the scholars that I understand who give explanations of passages.

Moriah had introduced me to the Blue letter Bible with Strongs concordance. It has all of the Bibles written to compare.

This is how I study the Bible.

Like Audrey, I know you love the Lord.

I'm concerned that you may be teaching too soon to those who are still young in the faith. It's what I did at a time and I know it hurt my witness and did damage to my family. I don't want this to happen to you. You have a good heart, but a fast mouth and yes this also reminds me of myself. :)

WLIJ always
1038 posts
Jan 11, 2010
11:47 AM
Sunday our pastor annouced that he was going to India for a couple weeks on a missions trip. He said a young pastor there was meeting in a basement (Christian churches are not allowed by the Hindus) and has only the Book of John as his teaching tool.

I have been in the Lord half my life. I have seen new converts rise up, spout off, and then for some reason die off. The tongue is an unruly thing.

Just weeks after my conversion I told Christ the talent He gave me I would use to His service. A secular newspaper wanted a weekly Bible column (can you imagine) and asked me, a newbee. You think I didn't proceed with a lot of apprehensiveness?!

I got into a lot of trouble with my "mouth" in those days, but I stood solidly behind the Scriptures, not my pen. Like Laura, I had a quick tongue and a lot of assurance. Today I walk much more quietly but carry a big stick--still reassured in the Scriptures.

The one thing I learned ... the hard way ... was to love those who were not lovely, and those who hated me. To be patient when I was being impatient. To weep for the hurting. To help those I could help. But to always stay true to the Word. ,,,Always!

In Christ's love,
261 posts
Jan 11, 2010
11:52 AM

The point is that we try to keep the Commandments. The Word says ,"He will judge our hearts." David said in Psalms that he had a Broken and "Contrite" heart. Abraham, David, Moses, you and me we are all sinners and we will sin over and over again. The point is are you making a truly heart wrenching effort not to sin. When you do sin even the smallest of sins are you convicted and do you need to confess right away and ask forgiveness. And I do mean the smallest of sins, like if you haphazardly answer someone and you realize that you lied do you ask forgiveness? Or when you are standing toe to toe with someone and they ask you a question do you tell the truth even if it is going to hurt you or the person? If not do you offer up your sacrifice because that was an intentional sin and God does not cover intentional sins by His grace. That one requires true repentance.

God is a God of absolutes. He is absolute good, Satan is absolute evil. Satan has been lying to us for centuries and he has through false teachings blurred the lines of truth and lies. He is the master of deception and all it takes is one or two words to do it. That is why I asked all of you to read the Gospels very carefully, and then read the original Apostles very carefully. If you do that then tackle Paul's Epistles things will appear very different.

Paul's Epistles are different from Jesus' Gospels. They are contrary to God's Law in many "assumed respects." If you read them quickly and without careful attention paid to the OT laws. They are only one or two words off from the OT counterpart, but that is enough to change the whole meaning. Paul also was a believer in the Oral Torah, and the Oral Torah was not included in Jesus' teachings. Jesus stuck to the book the OT.

Do I believe that Paul was a false prophet, no I don't but I do believe that his epistles were written in the way they were to confuse the true believers enough to make them dig deeper until they found the truth. Many seek the head knowledge and they have enormous amounts skills in reading and finding text to back up their view point, but it is those that seek with the heart that will find the truth.

I just said to Chucky, the gate is small and the path narrow. Now lets look at history for a moment. Sodom and Gomorah 4 people survived. Noah's Ark 8 people survived. What makes us think that in the coming rapture that 2.3 billion professing christians are going to be pulled off the face of the earth? MY guess based on the numbers from the OT it is going to be more like 200 maybe 300 million at the very most. There are going to be many people wailing and gnashing their teeth. It could be even less than those numbers because in the mid part of the tribulation there will be a great number brought to the throne who were martyred (beheaded) for their faith. So let's be honest shall we. We need to toss those rose colored glasses and get out our reading glasses.
I asked Yeshua, "How much do you love us?"
He stretched out His arms as far as they would go, and He answered, "This Much!" He took a deep breath and then He died.

Ariel (Rich)
1041 posts
Jan 11, 2010
11:59 AM
It is not for us to "guess" how many will be taken up but to tell others, as many as possible, of the salvation of Christ Jesus. We must take the news to all the lost. Just keep your own nose clean and press on. Paul was one of the greatest apostles Christ called into service. He even took Peter to task for his double timing (a Gentile when with the Gentiles, a Jew when with the Jews).

262 posts
Jan 11, 2010
12:20 PM

I'm not trying to teach at all. I'm just suggesting that you take a long hard look and compare.

I use Strong's Concordense, Thayers Bluebook lexicon, a NLT study Bible, a KJV Bible, an Amplified Bible, the Complete Hebrew Bible and the Aramaic Pershitta. I also go to Biblgateway and check out the Darby, Wycliffe, Holoman, Geneva Bibles. When I study the OT I have a Stones Edition of the Torah, 1917 JPC Tanahk, as well as I have acess to the Chumash Stones edition.

That's how I study the Bible!

And you and Moriah are right. We all study the same Word of God but we see different aspects.

As I have stated many times I just see things from a different perspective. You say orangish pink and I may say majenta are we different no just a different perspective.

Humor me by reading as I suggested not just once but maybe two or three times. Then go back to your old readings of Apostle Paul. Just see if you don't see a different perspective.
I asked Yeshua, "How much do you love us?"
He stretched out His arms as far as they would go, and He answered, "This Much!" He took a deep breath and then He died.

Ariel (Rich)
1020 posts
Jan 12, 2010
2:09 AM
dear neighbour, J-F ,___you ass-U-me that Paul is a practising Pharisee, when he is not.____why was he percicuted by the practising Jew of his days?____was he one of the first persons that were labled a "christian"?____i read that he was.______you are correct in your belief that Paul can be hard to understand at times, but he did follow the "way", after being 'Born Again', in my humble opinion._____i-daniel do thank you for the re-reaD OF THE bORN aGAIN Lord JESUS Christ, in Mark's book- chap.7 -, and also chap.8, for in them do we see/hear of our Lord's frustration with His "following-close-neighbours"-a.k.a.-his disciples-.____humbly i think that that is why the recorded events of chap.9, with the final warning about the "salt", Happened as GOD willed it tooo be IMPORTANT lesson for all.___________with love/PEACE\Hope in the LIVING, "Lord JESUS, son Of GOD, cHRISt"___i-daniel pray, with 'salty' tears for all neighbours.________p.s. what U think your dreams are telling U, may not be the answer that U think ; dear J-F, in my-daniel, humble-human-opinion.

Last Edited by on Jan 12, 2010 2:11 AM
265 posts
Jan 12, 2010
7:31 AM

I'm not assuming anything, that is my point. It is all of you that are assuming that Paul gave up his training and his teaching when he came to Christ. Something else you assume is everything that Paul mentions has a direct connection to Jesus and salvation. Much of what Paul actually talked about was the planting of his churches and the day to day operations. Many of the good works that Paul talks about are the good "deeds" of the members of those churches. Like helping one another, sending help to other churches the personal growth of the indivdual in understanding and teaching others about the "Good News." It doesn't necessarily have to do with Jesus (God) extending to us salvation. See this idea of a good work has to do not with everyone in general, but specific areas and individuals. The church is to perform the good works until Christ returns. We are Christ's hands and feet on earth.

We must remember that God gave us His two edged sword to separate bone from marrow, soul from spirit, and truth from lies.
I asked Yeshua, "How much do you love us?"
He stretched out His arms as far as they would go, and He answered, "This Much!" He took a deep breath and then He died.

Ariel (Rich)
1023 posts
Jan 13, 2010
2:59 AM
dear young man-neighbour, rich.___good today tooo you and yours.____while saul trained/nurtured into the position of a very capable Jewish-Pharisee, as was nicademus before him, both men needed tooo be "born-again" by the Power of GOD'S Holy Spirit/Right-Arm of Loving-Grace, tooo fully LEARN why those LAWS were given._____as for the "two edged sword", it is the LIVING Lord JESUS Christ that uses that tool from his mouth in the King-Domain of his Father/His GOD; and Not U or i._______with Love\PEACE/Hope in GOD, through Faith in my Lord JESUS Christ, i-daniel continue tooo pray for the understanding/LOVE of all neighbours, young-and-old.
276 posts
Jan 13, 2010
6:48 AM

Hebrews 4:12 (New Living Translation)

12 For the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires.

My brother we are to use this two-edged sword The Word of God to protect us from the lies of the devil. The Word of God is our only offense weapon, and if we truly do not know it we are subject to the lies of the enemy.

My friend I know that I sometimes appear to be a real pain in the backside, but I have a genuine fear that many are decieved. Actually I know that many are decieved! I know that all of you think I am a Calvinist, or something other than a true believer. Not so brother not so.

I see the deception right here among all of you, and I know that I'm going to take some serious heat for that statement. I'm not looking to win a battle or even wage a war, all I am saying is to look at the other side of the coin just as Jesus did.

Too much spirituality when something is literal, too much assumption from theologians who are selling books and CD's. Just like the phrase no respector of persons. No God does not respect us, He is not obligated to do for us the same as He did for someone else. We forget He is King of the Universe and He cam do whatever He pleases.

If we sin whether we are "saved" or not, means we have stepped out from under His umbrella of protection. Yes He provided a way for us to come back, but once again "We" the sinner must confess and repent (Sacrifice) all over again and ask His forgiveness. Up until the time we repent we run the risk of loosing our salvation. Plain and simple, believe it or not.

No we cannot save ourselves, yes Jesus sacrificed Himself for us. No we will never have to make another "Blood Atonement." But God cannot look on sin, and we have to acknowledge our sin everytime and confess and ask forgiveness. That has become God's sweet smelling aroma, our repentance and our confessions.

Eternal security is a wonderful thought but it is a lie for Hell and that is all there is to it. The advesary has taken almost 200 years to get that one into the church and he worked very diligently to corrupt the minds of those who subscribe to it.

We must remember God is a God of absolute goodness, He is a God of absolute truth, He is a Holy God, and He is a just God. That Justice is based on HIS LAW not what you think His LAW is. So go ahead and believe whatever you choose. God gave you free will and you can free will youself right into Hell!
I asked Yeshua, "How much do you love us?"
He stretched out His arms as far as they would go, and He answered, "This Much!" He took a deep breath and then He died.

Ariel (Rich)
1024 posts
Jan 13, 2010
7:34 AM
dear J-F, again good To-Day toooo you and yours._______yes you have a ferm point of view on sin and then repentance; and so does the Roman Catholic Church.______thank you for the re-read of that very important chap., oh young-one.___and i-daniel, suggest that you re-read, starting at the beginning of chap. 3 of the book tooo the HEBREWS- "therefore, Holy Brothers who share a heavenly calling, Fix your eyes on JESUS, the Apostle and High Priest whom WE acknowledge in FAITH, who was FAITHFULL to HIM who appointed him."_________and ending in chap.4 -" So let US Confidently approach the Throne of GRACE to recieve 'mercy and favor' and to find HELP in TIME of NEED."_____my point, as moved by that " two edged\SHARP/sword", tooo re-read my self, is ,- " Today, if 'we' should hear his VOICE/WORD, harden NOT our HEARTS."_______with Love\Peace/HOPE in Christ JESUS, our Lord.

Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2010 7:36 AM
280 posts
Jan 13, 2010
10:01 AM
Dear Jonzy,

Jonzy in Chapter 3 Paul was restating the fact that the Israelites did not follow God's commands. They were always making trouble and in Exodus it even states that God kept track of their lawlessness. This is why the Hebrews were not able to enter into the promised land they had to continue in the wilderness.

Paul is warning us if we do not keep to the commands of God, even though we have our Messiah, High Priest, Savior, Sacrifice, we will not enter into the rest that has been prepared for us. Basically Paul is warning us not to sin and allow that sin to continue.

You know brother even though we do have an intercessor, High Priest, mediator, and all the other wonder names the Lord Jesus carries. We still have to stop sinning. Do you agree with me on that point?

I asked Yeshua, "How much do you love us?"
He stretched out His arms as far as they would go, and He answered, "This Much!" He took a deep breath and then He died.

Ariel (Rich)

Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2010 10:36 AM
19 posts
Jan 13, 2010
6:54 PM
Stop sinning? OK, let's define sin. We've talked about this before. Jesus' "Sermon On The Mount" was designed to show us how hopeless (without Him) we really are when it comes to sin. By His standard even having a judgemental thought about someone else is akin to murder. Yes, we should try to stop the big, obvious sins. But once we get victory over one thing there's always the next thing. And so it will be as long as we are in this fallen flesh. Even Paul, who wrote most of the NT, struggled with this, as he wrote in Romans chapter 7. JF, we're no different! We're all in the same boat when it comes to "missing the mark" (the Biblical definition of sin).

My 2 cents worth...


Last Edited by on Jan 13, 2010 6:57 PM
932 posts
Jan 13, 2010
8:00 PM
Jesus was "gracious" by dying for us and sacrificing Himself that we might have the possibility to receive eternal life. God will be "gracious" to us and allow us an opportunity to recieve eternal life through His son Jesus Christ.
God being gracious to us, is still God's option. The wages of sin is still death. If we accepted Jesus once, and we went through all of the repentance once but we do not live a life that is pleasing to God then we have no right to expect salvation."

Response: And this I would have to say is very regrettable to hear.
A simplified acrostic applied to God’s grace is this:
G - God’s
R - riches
A - at
C - Christ’s
E - expense
We receive God’s riches of eternal life and all that goes with it because Christ was willing to be the sacrifice in our place. When we place our trust in Christ’s finished work on the cross and all that means, we have eternal life, not the possibility of eternal life. The wages of sin have been wiped out. We will die physically but we will live eternally. We only live a life that is pleasing to God because we love Him not because we are trying to earn salvation. It’s that plain and simple and maybe in your search for the difficult and intricate meaning you are missing the simple.

Whether you believe in eternal security or not is between you and God. Those on this site that see it as Scriptural have tried to show you where they are coming from but what you do with that information is up to you.

Growing in Him - Joanne
1029 posts
Jan 14, 2010
1:36 AM
thank yous all for sharing and caring, obviously in a NON-sin full WAY.______JESUS walked the walk, and talked the talk._____as faith-full followers of that "anointed by GOD", son of GOD, we all should Be-Live each To-Day as sin-less as we can, using our "born-again", new spiritual gifts as best we can; while resting fermly on the "auther of our Faith in GOD", our Lord JESUS Christ._____with Love\PEACE/Hope in the Living-Loving Lord JESUS Christ, i-daniel pray To_DAY.

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