Romans 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren; a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of Gentiles come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written.

The partial hardening of the Jews is only temporary. God purposes to save all. A spiritual blindness has seized the part but their fall is not final. Israel will be converted at the end before the Day of Resurrection. God/Jesus did this to make Israel jealous. The Jewish rejection of the Gospel led to preaching to Gentiles, whose conversion will finally bring the Jews to their senses and to faith in Jesus Christ, and so enrich the world.

mystery, a divine truth or purpose, long secret, now disclosed.

To best understand this hardening, Romans should be read with John 6.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him. 65 And he said "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

John 6: 36 "But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; 39 and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

( A commontary upon the mysterious division of mankind.

The Father "gives"

The Son "draws"

Men see and 1.believe or 2.refuse to see and turn away

The facts are clear; But can the process be logically explained? )

Yes, only in proper context of the Partial Hardening of The Jews.

This is why John 6:64 is so critically important:...For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe,....

Lets go to Romans 9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying ; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethern, my kinsmen by race 4 They are Israelists....

Paul here is giving his heartfelt plea to the Israelists and is speaking only to the Israelists up through and until Chapter 11:13

Romans 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles.

Here, Paul very specifically begins to speak to the Gentiles.

Not two ways of salvation, just two different audiences.

For Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 2:2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

For a loving Heavenly Father would not have laid the sins of the whole world upon Christ if only a few were able to be redeemed. This would not be just or fair.

All God asks is that man believes that Jesus is Lord.

Yours in Christ,
Mary

“The partial hardening of the jews that happened during the life of Jesus.
Romans 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren; a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of Gentiles come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written."

***I do agree that there is a hardening of the Jews in effect until “the full number of Gentiles come in.” Other translations say “the fullness of the Gentiles.” Three things to note however:

1. Not all of the Jews are hardened as God has always kept a remnant of believers throughout redemptive history. In verses 1-10 in this chapter, that is what Paul is stating:
“I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! I also am an Israelite of the seen of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew…” He then goes on to remind them how, during the time of Elijah, God “reserved for Himself 7,000 men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”

2. Israel’s unbelief will last only until the complete number of the Gentiles, chosen by God, have come to salvation.

3. “all Israel” refers to the entire nation that survives God’s judgment during the Great Tribulation. Before “all Israel” is saved, the unbelieving, God-rejecting members will be separated by God’s judgement as shown in Ezekiel 20:33-38.

“As I live declares the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out I shall be king over you….and I shall bring you into the wilderness…and there I shall enter into judgment with you face to face. As I entered into judgment with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will enter into judgment with you….and I shall purge from you the rebels and those who transgress against me…they will not enter the land of Israel.”***

"To best understand this hardening, Romans should be read with John 6.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe, and who it was that should betray him. 65 And he said "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
John 6: 36 "But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me; 39 and this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

***Quite frankly I do not see what John 6 has to so with this hardening of the Jews.

Jesus is speaking to the crowd after He has told them that He is the Bread of Life and those who come to Him will never hunger or thirst. But He states, there are some of you who will not believe this even though “you have seen me.” They asked for a sign but although they had seen His miracles and heard His teaching they just did not take in the significance of it all.

In verses 36-40 quite clearly tells us that all that the Father gives will come, Jesus will accept them, none will be lost, all will be raised upon the last day, all that believe will have eternal life - God chooses, man chooses.

Verse 59 - Jesus spoke to the crowd about “he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me” in the synagogue at Capernaum. Then the scene switches from his many disciples to the twelve.

Verse 60, referring back to the verse 59, they state “this is a hard saying, who can understand it?”

Verse 62 - Jesus knew from the beginning which of His many disciples would not believe in Him and leave and also who would betray Him.

Verse 65 - “no one can come to me unless it is granted to him by the Father” - one of the best statements describing how God chooses those who will come to faith in Christ.

Verse 66 - “from that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.”***

"Lets go to Romans 9:1
Paul here is giving his heartfelt plea to the Israelists and is speaking only to the Israelists up through and until Chapter 11:13 "

***I have to disagree - Romans 1:7 “to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints.”
This can include both Jews and Gentiles.

The whole theme of Romans concerns the righteousness that comes from God through faith in Christ alone. Chapters 1-11 present the theological truths of that doctrine while the rest deals with the practical outworking of that doctrine. For example chapter 3 tells of the universality of sin, chapter 5 sanctification, and chapter 9 sovereign election. Chapter 11 tells of God’s plan for Israel, chapter12 the spiritual gifts and practical godliness.***

"For a loving Heavenly Father would not have laid the sins of the whole world upon Christ if only a few were able to be redeemed. This would not be just or fair."

Again, you are trying to reason with your idea of what seems just and fair. I believe that if there were only one person who believed, Christ still would have died. Numbers are not important to God - many are called but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14); “for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction and many there are which go in…narrow is the way, which leads to life and few there are that find it.” Matthew 7:13-14.

I think the many passages on John Chapter 6 explains
the hardening very well.

For ex.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that do not believe." For Jesus knew from the first who those were that did not believe,

or could we phase this ( and I am not trying to change scripture) just put it another way

Jesus knew from the first those who heart was hardened and those who were not

or

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out.

These would have been the Jews that hearts were not hardened.

I agree Romans is for all the believers however Paul specifically calls out the Israelites in Chapter 9(vs4) and speaks specifically to them explaining the hardening of the Jews up until Romans 11:13.

Romans 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles.

"Now" signifies that he had not previously been addressing them specifically.

Very specific. One cannot deny this is very pointed change, and changed to the Gentiles.

I am not trying to explain or reason anything other than many Theologians throughout the centuries have come to understand. It is God that calls and man that chooses. It is a relationship.

The exclusive Predestination Interpretation lies mainly in a misunderstanding of the terminology within the teachings of Paul explaining the hardening of the Jews. God does predestine men within His purpose but offers salvation to all men.

For God to choose some and not others (except in the case of the hardening of the Jews) gives man no responsibility in his "choosing". This interpretation explains God as a caprious God, choosing some and cursing others to a life of torment. This makes God a fearful God, meaning man should fear him that He is unfair and not because we fear God out of respect.

God's name is Jesus who is called Justus

Col 4:11 and Jesus who is called Justus.

Our government on earth, is upon his shoulders. It is a government we can explain and that is fair.

Only interpretations of God choosing some and not others needs to say that we cannot understand the justice of God because man would have no say in our eternal destiny.

God/Jesus is fair. He calls for even the most evil to repent almost to the very end of Revelation.

God gives man the time to repent.

Did you really read what I said? What is the context of your John reference? Jesus is talking to his disciples, the large group of people who followed Him, not just the twelve. He is saying that some of them will fall away because they could not understand what He was saying and He knew who they were. It was a very specific group of people He was speaking of, not all Jews in general.

You quote "John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me; and him who comes to me I will not cast out" and interpret it to mean "These would have been the Jews that hearts were not hardened" but again look at the context. In verse 34 Jesus states "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." Jesus is speaking of anyone who comes to Him and the flow of thought continues in verse 37. What is happening here is Jesus is stating who He is (bread of life), what He does (satisfies hunger and thirst, and those who believe(that the Father gives Him) will not be cast out (rejected). Sorry but you just cannot add to this Scripture what is not there.

"Romans 11:13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles.

"Now" signifies that he had not previously been addressing them specifically."

Very specific. One cannot deny this is very pointed change, and changed to the Gentiles."

***Right, because there were both Jews and Gentiles in the Roman church. In the first part of the chapter he is addressing the Jews of the congregation and then he addresses the Gentiles and explains his mission of grafting in the Gentile branches so that they can "become a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree."

Why is he instructing them? vs.25 "for I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles has come in." He did not want the Gentiles to follow in Israel's footsteps so he was explaining the mystery to them.

"The exclusive Predestination Interpretation lies mainly in a misunderstanding of the terminology within the teachings of Paul explaining the hardening of the Jews."

***it is what it says "...until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." I don't know how Paul could have been any clearer.

I read what you said and I totally disagree with this teaching.

I am not adding anything, I stated that. I am just trying to state the understanding that Jesus had of the Jews he was talking with, i.e., who's heart was hardened and who's heart was not hardened.. Jesus knew before he came to earth, who's heart was hardened and who's heart was not.
These people that "heard and believed" were the "first fruits". They are the beginning, the foundation of what is now the church.

James 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth (The Jews (To the twelve tribes in the Dispersion James 1:1))by the word of truth that we should be a kind of first fruit of his creatures.

One main problem I have with the exclusive Predestination Interpretation is that it does not hold men accountable for their actions. In this interpretation, man has no responsibility for their actions or does not suffer the consequences of their actions. The end is clear.

For example: How many children do you have? Can you honestly say that if God has decided that one of those children is going into the lake of fire at the end that you are okay with that? Is that the definition of love in 1 Cor.13:7. Don't you hope that all your children are destined for heaven with God?

"Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."

I think you and I would have a clearer discussion if you would not use some of your reference materials to explain the specific scriptures.

Just know, that if you and I are never going to agree on this, that when I see an exclusive Predestination statement made, I will challenge it. I don't have any problem with you personally, just some of the reference materials you have been steeped in.

Man has free will.

Philemon 14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be compulsion but of your own free will.

God calls to all

Jesus draws

Man chooses

Yours in Christ,
Mary

***The only reference I have used here is scripture itself and it is quite plain as to what it says.***

“I don't have any problem with you personally, just some of the reference materials you have been steeped in.”

***I guess I could say the same for you. May I mention that you are the one that always brings predestination into the picture.

“One main problem I have with the exclusive Predestination Interpretation is that it does not hold men accountable for their actions. In this interpretation, man has no responsibility for their actions or does not suffer the consequences of their actions.”

***I believe in election and I believe in free choice. How many times have I said that they go hand-in-hand? God chooses/we choose. Man does have responsibility for his actions for it is his sin that separates him from God and He does hold him accountable.***

“…that when I see an exclusive Predestination statement made, I will challenge it.”

***it is what it says "...until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." I don't know how Paul could have been any clearer. If you are challenging this statement then you are challenging the apostle Paul not me.

jonzy, on your question on Col., I believe you are correct. I don't think I read that carefully. Thank you for pointing this out. :)

jonzy, on Isaiah's reference to the softening of the heart, I understand this to be something different than "the hardening of the Jews" because the softening of the heart can also apply to Gentiles. So, we have in scripture, "The Hardening" and then "The Softening" or the "New Heart". Found also in Jeremiah 31:31 and Heb 8:8-13, to name a couple. Glad to see you joined our discussion there Brother.

Joanne,

Please read and consider this in our belabored discussion:

Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go NOWHERE amoung the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans,

ONE MESSAGE OF SALVATION

TWO AUDIENCES

1. The Jew

2. The Gentile

Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

It is not the will of God that anyone should perish.

God calls

Jesus draws

Man chooses

Yours in Christ,
Mary

Correct, Jews and Gentiles. Hope you are having a good day in the Lord.

What I am bringing out here specifically, is the mystery Paul talks about.

Romans 12:25......, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren; a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in,

then, praise God, God in his fairness, will save all Israel, verse 26.

This mystery, something very specific that God is working out upon part of Israel.

“Matt 18:14 So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish. “
It is not the will of God that anyone should perish.”

***I have already addressed this in previous posts but to refresh your memory:
This is God’s will of desire and is not always fulfilled as the following examples show:
- Jesus willed that Jerusalem be saved -
Luke 13:34 - "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, I wanted to gather your children together,just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it."
- Jesus wills everyone be saved -
John 5: 39-40 - You search the Scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."***

"But that's where we are, we're in that predetermined position that was put there by the counsel of the Triune God before anything was ever created. Now the big argument comes up, "Well, now wait a minute. Are we elected, are we chosen before we ever had anything to do about it?" And the opposite party comes and says, "It was all of our own free will. We decided to choose Salvation."

And I say, "Well, now wait a minute, Yes whosoever will sits over here, you can't deny it." The Scripture is full of it, that Christ died for every man, (I Corinthians 15:1-4) He tasted death for every man, He's not willing that any should perish. But over here the Scripture says you were chosen before the foundation of the world. Now, maybe you can, but I can't explain those two facts of Scripture. But I'm going to let them set in Scripture by faith. This is what God has said, and I'm going to let Him settle the controversy because I can't...

and what's on the front part of the door? "Whosoever will may come!" So the `whosoever' goes through that door of opportunity, and when he gets to the other side and looks back, what does he see on the other side of the door? "Chosen in Him, before the world was ever created."

Ephesians 1:4
"According as he (Christ Himself) hath chosen us in him (when?) before the foundation of the world..."

Now I know that's mind-boggling, and I know it throws a curve at a lot of people...In other words, when we were teaching Romans chapter 9, remember how I taught it? Over here on the right hand we had whosoever will may come, but over here on the other side we have this verse in Ephesians that says you were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Now humanly speaking, can you understand that? I can't and I don't think you can. It is impossible for a human being to understand that over here we have whosoever will may come. And over here we have chosen before the foundation of the world was formed. The two are counter to each other, but is it a problem for God? No, and that's where I leave it.

Leave it in God's hands, because the best I can do is bring the two to the middle. Just as you respond to whosoever will, and you come to that invitation, the Lord Jesus shouts throughout all of Heaven, "I chose him before the foundation of the world." And that's the best way I can explain it, but to say I understand it, I don't. I've just got to leave it in the hands of God, because this is what the Word says. Just revel in those two statements. That yes, you exercised your free will when you responded to the Gospel. But on the other hand God could honestly say, "I chose you before anything was ever created." It's a glorious thought isn't it?

Ephesians 1:1a
"Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God..."
How did we become a child of God? Not by our will, but rather by God's will. Now that doesn't take away our free choice, because again we have to constantly remember -
John 6:44a
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:..."

Ephesians 1:4a
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,..."
I mean that's just mind boggling, and the only thing we can do is take it by faith. I can't understand and comprehend that, but it's what the Word declares. So we were called -
II Timothy 1:9b
"...not according to our works, but according to his purpose..."
Which is completely wrapped up in the Grace of God. Now let's go back to Ephesians in the moments we have left. Now doesn't that thrill you when you see how the whole Book fits together so beautifully? How that we were predestined according to the purpose which is all under the control of the power of God. Every thing is working according to the counsel of His own will. Now verse 12. Now this is for one purpose, this is why we are, what we are, this is why, who we are.

Ephesians 1:12a
"That we should be to the praise of his glory,..."
Oh if believers could just get a little excited about this fact, that the reason we're left here, the reason that God gives us breath day after day is that we might bring praise to His glory.

Believers were chosen, called and saved to be the "praise of His glory."

No man was/is destined for Hell. Hell was not even created for man. So we can look back. God is justice and mercy and not a capricious God so it is our responsibility to dig deep enough, and that includes Les Feldick, to understand this. The answer is in the scripture.