Here is my continuation of the purpose of Christ Crucified. God's creation has free will and Christ's Victory will reconcile God's entire creation.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only
Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

God, because of a battle begun by Satan, God had to reconcile his entire creation. That included mankind, angels, powers and principalities. Mankind is the only creation invited to be part of his family, his sons and daughters but Jesus Christ reconciled mankind and will reconcile God's whole creation at the Final Victory of Christ (Rev. 19:11-21).

How the Battle began:

Satan rebelled against God because of his (Satan's) pride. Satan became jealous of God and lead a revolution to take God's place.

About Satan:

Isaiah 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 13 You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds. I will make myself like the Most High.'

Revelation 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell' and committed them to pits of nethergloom to be kept until the judgment;

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking some one to devour.

Isaiah 24:21 On that day the Lord will punish the host of heaven, in heaven, and the kings of the earth, on the earth. 22 They will be gathered together as prisoners in a pit; they will be shut up in a prison, and after many days they will be punished.

Isaiah 25:11 And he will spread out his hands in the midst of it as a swimmer spreads his hands out to swim; but the Lord will lay low his pride together with the skill of his hands.

Isaiah 63:1 Who is this that comes from Edom, in crimsoned garments from Bozrah, he that is glorious in his apparel, marching in the greatness of his strenght?

"It is I, announcing vindication, mighty to save."

2 Why the apparel red, and thy graments like his that treads in the wine press?

3 I have trodden the wine press alone, and from the peoples no one was with me: I trod them in my anger and trampled them in my wrath: their lifeblood is sprinkled upon my garments, and I have stained all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance was in my heart, and my year of redemption has come.
5 I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; SO MY OWN ARM BROUGHT ME VICTORY (Jesus), and my wrath upheld me.

Psalms 110:1 The Lord says to my lord; "Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."

Psalms 8:6 Thou has given him dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet,

God's creation has free will. It was from free will that Satan' pride to become like God caused him to sin, him and his followers from the powers and principalities.

Christ has conquered death but we still live in a battle of worlds. We gain adoption because Christ was brought through the seed of Abraham. God's creation will have free will until after the Final Victory of Christ.

1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive, 23 But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ, 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The lsst enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For God has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, THAT GOD MAY BE EVERYTHING TO EVERY ONE.

That God may be everything to every one marks the end of "free will".

Revelation relates the final victory plus the New Jerusalem.

What is our mission here on earth? What is the Purpose of the Church and the Great Commission of the Church?

In my next post:

The Purpose and Commission of the Church

Although God knew Satan would fall, the sin did not originate with God. God cannot sin against himself. Satan's sin came from within himself and his free will.

I will look further for a scripture reference on this.

It was not God's plan that Satan sin but it became God's purpose to reconcile his entire creation from sin through his Son to recover his creation.

Here is some additional scripture on Satan's fall and God's redemptive plan for His creation. Thought we could use this in our current study on how much did Satan know about the consequences of his actions.

As per our discussion on the previous thread, God did not create sin or evil. Evil always presupposes something good, and God made everything good. God's Plan was/is Good, and the Fall had to have been a part of His Plan, since nothing happens outside of God's Plan. It's much like a good recipe - not all the ingredients that go into it taste good by themselves, or are even healthy in large quantities, (they might be quite unhealthy), but when mixed and cooked and prepared properly, feed and nourish and give satisfaction to that individual. Romans 8.

If we accept the immense Fall of the angels, ie: they had no further chance or opportunity for salvation, then we must conclude they had all the knowledge of the consequence of their actions. They were residing in "the" eternal Heaven, the same one we are headed to.

I like your train of thought here. I still have some questions though. As Isaiah 1:18 "Come let us reason together.....

What I believe:

God is love.

We are to conform to the image of Christ which is the image of God, which is love.

If we have children, then we love them and want the best for them. We do not predestined them to any place other than love. God would not desire that his son's and daughters abide anywhere except for in love.

The main questions are not our understanding of things of God. He is love. The questions are:

1. The problems of "free will" of God's creation

and

2.God's operating in and out of "our time".

If there is a choice for God's way then there is also a choice for disobedience.

Man was created with free will.

Man chose to go against God's wishes and ate from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Was this where evil was introduced and what is evil?

Is evil defined as anything contrary to the will of God?

I believe that God predestines all men to be with Him. Then God lives with us in "our time" and though he knows the outcome, He does not interfer with our free will but desires to show us mercy.

Man chooses.

God is love and cannot desire anything other than love. He will live with us in "our time" but if man chooses the things of this world instead of the things of God, God will allow that person to perish.

To say that God predestines some men to perish is contrary to God's character which is love. For God so love the whole world, he came to earth as Immanuel so that none would perish.

"God is love." and "Man was created with free will."

Man was created in the image of God...Genesis 1...so if God is Love, then man was created with the capacity to love. "Free will" would be that expression of love as opposed to being robotic about it. ie: you could "choose to" or "choose not to".

Since God is "first cause", by the fact that He has not had a beginning or was "made" by anything or anybody, and if His character is "Good" as He tells us it is, then it stands to reason that everything He would make would also be good. By that I mean that if He would have created this world differently (in any way), it would have still been good, no matter how differently He might have made it. This is a very important concept to try to understand.

So sin (or evil) would be anything which would go against the "first cause" of creation, because we would be going against our "Maker" and the way He made things. So since He made us and our world in this way, we have to believe it to be the best it could ever be.

"Why" it is the way it is will always be a mystery to us as we reside here on earth, because to understand the "why" would mean we would have to have the capacity to be and think in the same capacity as our God, and we didn't even have that ability in our pre-Fall state. We will understand the "why" when we get to heaven, but we will never understand the full capacity or character of our God. He will reveal it to us, but I think that is one of the reasons we will be bowing before Him and worshiping Him continually, because we will see Him as He is.

So, God made us to be with Him forever (Genesis 1), but even after we rejected Him, He made a way for us to be with Him forever again. So in all instances it is God Who has made a way for us to be with Him, but in all instances it was us who opposed that way. So, if we allow God's Love - it is all His work, but if we reject it - it is ours alone.

If God would influence us in any way other than He has throughout time, He would be trespassing on that "free will", or "love" as you could call it, and negating it. So we need to believe God has done everything He could for us. And we do!

Serge

ducktape, loved your post. Thank you for putting that together.

Serge, please join in as the Spirit leads.

Am working on next post. Ron said this week that Job was the first book written of the Bible. Does anyone know if Satan's fall was before mankind was created? I don't know that I have that answer anywhere.

ducktape, as you stated, God chose to make the world as He did. (Agree). As I understand from the Westminster Study Bible there will be a time when "free will" will come to an end. (This is their interpretation.)

1 Cor 23-28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to everyone one.

So this signifies that God will, at this time, change this aspect of creation. The WSB states that God will change creation. It will all be God's will at this time and free will will be done away with.

Any and all help appreciated!

Studying on concerning "free will" and "our time",
Mary

concerning time:

Matt 3:2 "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
(Christ is alive so this is the present tense, correct?)

I was a day behind in watching QS. Just watched Aug.1 where Ron taught on Satan's fall from heaven, Is 14.

Ron taught after Satan's fall from sin of free will, God put mankind in the Garden of Eden to redeem his creation. So it sounds like mankind was created after the fall of Satan. Definitly understand that God knew he would bring forth Christ to win the victory but it also says that God looked to mankind first. Correct?

Isaiah 63:5 I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me victory,...

Ron also taught that through the teaching of the scripture, it is evident that mankind is bent on sin.

The sin of free will, the sin within the heart of Satan resulted in Satan and his angels falling from heaven.

The sin within the heart of man:
Heb 3: 10 Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said 'They always go astray in their hearts;

resulted in the fall of mankind.

God will someday do away with free will.

What a loving, amazing God we serve.

1) How do you reconcile Genesis 1:31 "31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good...."?

2) No matter how you look at it Jesus died for "man", the fallen angels are still damned. So why make man? To save the angels?

1 Corinthians 15:21 "21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead."

Serge, another thing that Ron said on that study, (Aug. 1),
was "Free will makes it possible for love to take place". Very interesting way to put this. Ron usually answers my questions, I must be faithful....all year.... :)
ducktape says this as well, just in a different way.

ducktape,

I think I can answer question #2

I agree, the angels are still condemned but what Christ did was conquer death and conquer God's enemies, that included the angels. God thru Christ, died for mankind, yes, and also died to reconcile the whole world.

1 Cor 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.

2 Cor 5:19 that is, God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself,....

Eph 1:20 which he accomplished in Christ when he raise him from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above very name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. 22 and has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church,

Psalms 8:6 Thou hast given him dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet.

God, thru Christ conquer all God's enemies. God's main enemy is Satan, an angel.

Now, what the church is doing in the rhelm of powers, angels and principalities:

Eph 3:9 and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; 10 that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.

(We, the church of man,are a spectacle to the rest of God's creation (angels, powers, principalities) because we choose to serve God out of love, not fear or compulsion). Where it says, manifold, it means multipurpose of God. God's purpose was for man's salvation, yes and also to conquer His ememies.

To bring this even more into perspective, please read the whole first chapter of Hebrews.

1 Pet 1:12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.

Hebrews 2:14...,that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is,the devil,

Christ, the conquering King of the Universe!!

I hope this puts my interpretation into context, if not, let me know.

On your question 1, I am not sure I follow your train of thought, can you please give me a little more info? Thanks!

Yours in Christ,
Mary

I believe the angels were created on Day 4. But even if they weren't, (because there is not a lot of direct evidence in the Bible), the Fall did not occur until after the seventh Day. The Word states God performed His creative acts within the first six days and rested on the seventh. There is no reason to believe the seventh day was any different in length than the previous six, as the week of seven days has been used throughout history. The reason I say that is because God declared "everything good" after the first six days and then rested on the seventh. He would not have been able to rest had sin already been introduced. By that I mean the seventh day is also a symbol (of sorts) to the day of rest we are awaiting after our toil here on earth ie: Heaven.

So my only point is that man couldn't have been placed in the Garden after Satan's fall, because the Bible clearly states he was placed there on the sixth day. The Fall happened after the Seventh day - probably soon after, as Adam and Eve had not yet begun to follow their first command to "be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth".

It is still argued which sin came first. Adam's or Satan's. the Bible states the earth (and universe) was cursed because of Adam's sake, not Satan's or Eve's. Genesis 3:17-19, yet Jesus states Satan was a murderer from the beginning. John 8:44 Nevertheless, Christ came to die to save mankind, not angelkind. The reason is probably found in Hebrews 6.

A final interesting thought on "free will". God apparently gave it to the angels as well as us, because we know they exercised it. The angels who minister for God now are in the state we will attain someday in that they do not have the ability to sin anymore. So does that mean that free will equals love or is a form of love? Those in Heaven love God, and worship Him. God, through Jesus freely exercised (free will) His Love to us by taking our punishment upon Himself. But God Himself cannot sin (1 John 3:9), and God is Love (1 John 4:8+16), so "free will" must only be the ability to sin. Since sin and evil presuppose something good, and are manifestations of a changed goodness, and God will not allow any of that in Heaven, free will will not be there either.

So I don't believe that "Free will makes it possible for love to take place". Free will makes it possible for evil to take place.

In Christ,
ductape

I agree with this last post of yours. One question. You stated regarding the angels present with God "in that they do not have the ability to sin anymore." Where does that information come from. Can you please reference it?

There are a lot of passages which deal with the angels. I'm just going to present a few. Hopefully the comparison of man to angels and angels to man will be clear. We know God will not allow anything sinful or harmful again into His "New Creation", therefore all beings will have no more ability to sin.

Rev. 21:"3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me,[a] “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”"

Matthew 22:"29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a] in heaven."

Luke 20:"35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. 37 But even Moses showed in the burning bush passage that the dead are raised, when he called the Lord ‘the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

Very interesting!

I agree, Christ died for mankind not angelkind. I did say that Christ's purpose was manifold.
He died for mankind AND also to crush God's enemies. That is clear.

I do not know the answer of time, of which came first, Satan's fall or the creation of mankind. (I posed this question earlier and posted Ron's teaching for study.)

We do know this:

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God say, 'You shall not eat of any tree of the garden'?...4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die.

I have always heard that Satan was the serpent. I have been taught that the first thing Satan does is accuse and lie, steal and then kill.

If the serpent is Satan then Satan would already be in his fallen state. Correct? Isn't he the father of all lies?

I do agree though, Christ did not die for angels. However, God sent Christ thru mankind to reconcile his entire world.

Couldn't both Satan and man fall after the 7th day? Satan would have had to fall first, then man. God would have known Satan's fall was coming and have put man in the Garden already. God always knew he would bring victory through Christ thru the seed of Abraham.

The final victory of Christ: Rev.19:11-21.

Will reread your post on free will, it is very interesting as well.

Yours in Christ,
Mary

Hello Frank,

Good to see you on. You must have been typing when I was typing. (I'm gettin old and slow!) :)

We do know Satan (or Lucifer as his first name) was given a high (if not the highest) ranking in the order of the angels.

Isaiah 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

Ezekiel 28
11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD:

“ You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 “ You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.
16 “ By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 “ Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.
18 “ You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.”’”

The Ezekiel passage, although it starts out addressing the king of Tyre, it is definitely addressing an angel (cherub) who was in the Garden of Eden. It has to be Lucifer.

I don't know everything about time either, and one of the things I am looking forward to understanding is Satan's fall from heaven. We know from the beginning chapters of Job that he was still in Heaven accusing us before God. Yet we know he was cast to the earth where he made war with the woman (church) (Rev. 12) and that he was in the Garden at the beginning. I believe he was already angry from being cast from heaven (1 Peter 5:7-9) that he deceived man, even though it doesn't seem like that event happened yet. He was cast from Heaven when Jesus ascended to take His rightful place beside the Father. I think it comes from trying to mix eternity with time. They don't mix.

ducktape,

My own personal thoughts at this point when we hit a difficult answer is to conceed to Ron's study. I would love to have him tell us his understanding of Satan's falling first and then God's move to redeem his creation through man. Out of respect for his teaching and his 30 plus years of studying all translations of the Bible, I feel better saying this since this is their website.

I by no means am trying to discourage opposing interpretations/statements/positions and scripture on this subject. It is necessary, as Frank has pointed out before, to get us all to dig deeper into God's word. It is very satisfying to share with all here.

Verses 13 and 15 state Lucifer was made on one of the days of creation.

Verse 17 states it was because of his good looks and splendor that he fell.

This was a great discussion. I will revist as I learn more thru study. ducktape, the info on the angels is very interesting, had never caught this. As Frank stated, learning how free will effects all, mankind and angels, Ron teaches on this all the time. Perhaps Ron will speak more specifically in the future to our questions. Ron did teach today that love comes from the heart of God...studying on.

Mary - “Although God knew Satan would fall, the sin did not originate with God. God cannot sin against himself. Satan's sin came from within himself and his free will.
I will look further for a scripture reference on this.
It was not God's plan that Satan sin but it became God's purpose to reconcile his entire creation from sin through his Son to recover his creation”

***I know that God cannot sin and that Lucifer’s sin came from within himself. That was not my question which was “Was Satan’s fall outside of God’s plan or part of it?” Lucifer’s fall had to have occurred after creation day 6 because at the end of that day God stated that everything He had made was "very good." If Lucifer had already fallen then that statement would have been a lie. Lucifer also fell before Adam and Eve’s sin because He was the instrument of their disobedience.

Consider:
- Matthew 25:34 - “Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world”
- Ephesians 1:4 - “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love”

If believers were chosen before the “foundation of the world”, that is the creation of the world, and if the kingdom that they would inherit was prepared before “the foundation of the world” then God’s plan of redemption had to have been put in place before creation even took place.

This is further emphasized in 1 Peter 1: 19 & 20 - “but with the precious blood of Christ as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you…” Peter is telling us that in eternity past, before sin and even before creation, God planned the redemption of sinners through Jesus Christ.

Mary - “If we have children, then we love them and want the best for them. We do not predestined them to any place other than love. God would not desire that his son's and daughters abide anywhere except for in love.”

***This makes perfect sense from a human point of view. But we do not have the mind of God do we. Who do you refer to when you say God’s “sons and daughters?” If you mean fellow believers, then yes, I would have to agree with this statement. However, if you are referring to all humankind that God created then I disagree with your line of reasoning. Only those who are believers can be called God's sons and daughters.

You stated in another post that there are 50 or so odd verses that state that God desires that everyone be saved. Well let’s look at just one of them.

- 2 Peter 3:9 “the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”

First of all, who is Peter speaking to in this section of Scripture? In verse 1 of chapter 3 we have “Beloved, now I write to you…” and he reiterates this in verse 8, “Beloved, do not forget this one thing…” In verse 14 he says “therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things…” and in verse 17 “you therefore beloved…” Who are the “beloved?” In the context of the whole chapter, we can safely say that the “beloved” are those who are saved, fellow believers in Christ.

When we go back to verse 9 “is longsuffering toward us…” Who are the “us?”
In “us” Peter is including himself so he must be referring to fellow believers.
“…not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance…” - again in the context of the verse Peter is speaking of believers.

What is this verse actually saying? Peter states that God is not willing that any of His chosen ones should perish. God is patient (longsuffering) and the reason for the fact that Christ has not yet returned was because not all of His chosen had come to repentance. When this happens then the Day of the Lord (vs. 10; Day of God - Vs. 12)) will take place, but those who are His do not have to worry because they look for a “new heavens and a new earth” (vs.13)

Different viewpoints, different interpretations.

You are welcome. I see from your post, we still have differing interpretation. From your posts I see you have a heart after God and are true to checking interpretations thru going back to the word. If I may say so, I think you have a strong study from MacArthur which is difficult to let go of because he perhaps has much good to say on other scriptures. You know by now, I feel very strongly that MacArthur comes short of a full understanding of the scripture. I am not trying to make you upset with me, I am saying it is hard to overcome years of study.

Let me post some strong scriptures to oppose the predestination interpretation.

1 John 2:2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Tim 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might brings us to God...

Heb 10:34 And Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 You know the word which he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace by Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),

Acts 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead.

Romans 2:11 For God shows no particiality.

Let me further say that MacArthur also makes many statements that God cannot be understood. This is not so.
Although we can never understand all of God, what is necessary for us to have a relatioship and understanding of Him, is in his Word. Here is one scripture of complete assurance:

2 Tim 2:7 Think over what I say, for the Lord will grant you understanding in everything.

Not only thru the study of scripture and the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit the scripture says this:

1 Cor 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

This is an amazing statement. This is not a spirit of confusion as MacArthur sees God but the miraculous indwelling of the Holy Spirit that can bring to remembrance all the scripture to our minds.

2 Cor 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God.

I am a sinner, saved by Grace. I know nothing except thru the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and his Holy Word. I once was taught the Predestination of Calvin but could not reconcile all the scripture thru this teaching. I am now free, and know that God wishes to save all mankind. He so loved all the world that He gave his only Son.

“If I may say so, I think you have a strong study from MacArthur which is difficult to let go of because he perhaps has much good to say on other scriptures. You know by now, I feel very strongly that MacArthur comes short of a full understanding of the scripture. I am not trying to make you upset with me, I am saying it is hard to overcome years of study.

***First of all, I use many different types of references for my studies, Dr. MacArthur being only one of them. As I have said previously, my beliefs come from my study of Scriptures, not from what any one particular person says. My position on election was formed even before I knew that John MacArthur even existed. I have also stated that even though you may feel that He does not have a strong understanding of Scripture in this area, nor I for that matter, I disagree. However, that is my opinion, and we are all entitled to our own opinions and are answerable to God for them. Also why would I want to overcome years of study and teaching by the Spirit?

Having said that I would like to comment on the verses you use as opposition to the election/predestination issue.

1. 1 John 2:2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
***This is true, Jesus did die for the sins of the whole world. However, what exactly does this mean? As most of the “whole world” will be condemned to hell for not accepting Jesus as Saviour, their sins could not have been paid for by Christ. Only those who believe have their sins paid for. If you consider the following you will see that the actual atonement was made only for those who believe:

John 10:11, 14, 15 - “I am the Good Shepherd. The Good Shepherd gives His life for the sheep…I know My sheep…and I lay down my life for the sheep.”

Acts 20:28 - “…to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.”

Romans 8:32, 37 - Paul is speaking to believers “He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all…”

Ephesians 5:25 - “Husbands love your wives as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her…”

2. 1 Tim 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
***In this verse the Greek word for “desire” expresses God’s “will of desire” not His “will of decree” and yes there is a difference. God hates sin and hates the consequences of unrepentant sin. He does not want anybody to go to hell. That is His will of “desire.” However, God is just and has decreed that those who do not repent will go to hell. This is His will of “decree.” So although He desires everyone to be saved, not all will.

3. Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men,
***same at point #1.

4. 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God...
***I do not see how this applies to election/predestination. As this was written by Peter to fellow believers the “us” referred to are those who are already saved.

5. Heb 10:34 And Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I perceive that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation any one who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 You know the word which he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace by Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),
***I do not see how this applies. Salvation is offered to all who accept it. And I might add that those who accept it are those who have been elected, to which I know you will disagree.

6. Acts 17:31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead.
***You forgot verse 30 which states “...He commands men everywhere to repent.”
The NASB says “..having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.” In other words salvation only comes through Christ and the proof of this is in His resurrection, so men everywhere need to repent to obtain it.

7. Romans 2:11 For God shows no particiality.
***This is true - God is not partial to those He chooses. He does not say that only whites or only men or only the rich, for example, can be saved. Anyone can fit the bill of those He has called, as Scripture even affirms that there will be those from many nations, and or many different languages in heaven.

8. Let me further say that MacArthur also makes many statements that God cannot be understood. This is not so.
***Again I need to say that you do not fully understand where Dr. MacArthur is coming from in this teaching.

Now can we please drop the criticism of this man of God? I am not going to discuss him with you anymore.

9. He so loved all the world that He gave his only Son.
***Praise be to God for His unspeakable Gift!

If you will, please explain to me:

1 Peter 1:1-3: "Peter an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's ELECT, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been CHOSEN according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood"

1 Peter 2:9, 10 - “But you are a CHOSEN generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvellous light”.

Rom 8:28, 29 - "to those who are THE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE, for who He FOREKNEW, He also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of His Son…moreover whom He PREDESTINED, these He also CALLED…"

Eph 1:4 - “just as He CHOSE us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having PREDESTINED US TO THE ADOPTION OF SONS by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will to the praise of glory of His grace by which He made us accepted in the beloved”.

Eph 1:11 - "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINED according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.”

2 Tim. 2:10 - “therefore I endure all things for the sake of the ELECT, that they also may obtain salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.”

Luke 18:7 - “…and shall not avenge His own ELECT…”

Romans 8:33 - “who shall bring a charge against God’s ELECT…”

Matthew 24:22 - “And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the ELECT’S sake those days will be shortened.”

Matthew 24:31 - “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Luke 18:7 - “And shall God not avenge His own ELECT who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?”

Romans 8:33 - “Who shall bring a charge against God’s ELECT? It is God who justifies.

1 Thessalonians 1:4 - “knowing, beloved brethren, your ELECTION by God.”

2 Timothy 2:10 - “Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the ELECT, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.”

Titus 1:1 “Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s ELECT and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness”

Matthew 20:16 - “So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but FEW CHOSEN.”

Revelation 17:14 - “These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are CALLED, CHOSEN, and faithful.”

You see Mary, there are many verses (not all are listed here) that support being chosen/elected/predestined, and they just cannot be ignored. Because there are verses on both sides I chose to believe, as we have already been told, “God chooses, man chooses” and leave the why’s and wherefore’s up to Him.

Isa 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

Good to see you joining our discussion! Great scripture, thank you!

I will try to put this as simply as possible.

If Paul is speaking of the Jews during Jesus's day then they are either part of the hardening or part of the elect.

If Paul is not speaking about this hardening then the elect means elected to preach and teach.

All men are predestined to be with God. All have a purpose and plan for their lives.

It can be said to encourage the teachers, preachers, the new Holy Nation as a whole to encourage them that they are predestined, and have a purpose. Just as Paul had a very specific purpose and followed God's leading up to the last breath.

God calls, we respond,called according to God's purpose is for all mankind.

A man can become a Christian and still miss his purpose.

Romans 8 is refering to the hardening.

Please give me one scripture at a time. It is hard to address so many at a time if you still have questions.

God offers salvation to all, we choose.

I would like to leave you with this scripture:

Ez 33:17 Yet your people say, 'The way of the Lord is not just; when it is their own way that is not just. 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it. 19 And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it. 20 Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just, 'O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways.

Man's choosings either condems him or saves him.

A misunderstanding of the predistination terms have brought confusion over the centuries, however if we look at God's character, we will not be confused.

God desires even the wicked be saved.

I know that you as a Berean will continue to study the scriptures for the truth. I will pray that the Lord reveals his perfect truth to you.

I understand there are many times that we all have differing interpretations of scripture. However, Ron teaches God offers salvation to all, man chooses. This is the only teaching I have ever differed with Rod on and I have been watching QS for close to 10 years. I love Rod and support him completely. He too is an awesome man of God. If I see this interpretation on this blog, I will continue to challenge this.

I hope that you continue to watch Ron, in fact Friday, Sept 5th is an awesome study for you.

“God desires even the wicked be saved.”
***I have already addressed this in Mary part 1, #2 where I stated:
1 Tim 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
In this verse the Greek word for “desire” expresses God’s “will of desire” not His “will of decree” and yes there is a difference. God hates sin and hates the consequences of unrepentant sin. He does not want anybody to go to hell. That is His will of “desire.” However, God is just and has decreed that those who do not repent will go to hell. This is His will of “decree.” So although He desires everyone to be saved, not all will.

“Man's choosings either condems him or saves him.”
***I agree with this but as I stated previously, “God chooses, we choose, and I leave the why’s and wherefore’s up to Him.”

“All men are predestined to be with God. All have a purpose and plan for their lives.”
***I disagree. Following are the four verses in the New Testament where predestination is mentioned. Where does it state this?

Romans 8:29
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Romans 8:30
"Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

Ephesians 1:5
"having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

Ephesians 1:11
"In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,"

“Please give me one scripture at a time. It is hard to address so many at a time if you still have questions.”
***I have no questions. It is interesting that you can give many verses to support your points but when I do the same you ask for them one at a time. It doesn’t really matter, I just wanted to show you the many verses that use the words chosen/elect/ predestined.

“I will pray that the Lord reveals his perfect truth to you.”
***He already has.

In the Romans scripture you posted above, concerning the Predestined, one must understand that there are two audiences. The Jew and the Gentile. Picture the crowd in your mind. Many Jews, the Predestined ones that " God allowed to hear and understand Christ the savior, and the Gentile. Paul goes on in Romans to specifically address the Gentile.

Paul in Romans is being specific because these in the audience, are Jews which would make them specifically Predestined,not (part of the hardening).

The Jews in the audience were indeed chosen to "hear" and understand the message of salvation.

You are correct, Paul's audiences were believers, this would move them into the catagory of teachers and preachers. Paul is still our teacher today, and we are also teachers and preachers of the word, depending upon God's calling.

If you are interested in understanding the scriptures that show that all men are predestined, have a purpose, and a choice, I will do a seperate posting for this. I will post specific scripture and specific examples, including Moses, Jeremiah, Ez. etc. The only person I have any question with is Judas. Everyone else in the history of mankind, I have no doubt that God chose for them to be with Him in eternity and gave everyone a specific purpose for this earth.

I don't know how exhausted you are on this. I am up to the challenge, though, let me know.